How to Make Connections Through Humor and Storytelling: A Candid Conversation With Steve Lichtenstein and Deena Baikowitz

[00:00:00] Hi, welcome to Beyond The Paper Gown. I'm Dr. Mitzi Krockover. Today's episode is part of our

[00:00:20] candid conversation series where we delve into health and healthcare topics with guests from both

[00:00:26] within and outside the healthcare field. Today we're focusing on the interplay between

[00:00:31] humor, health and the connections that bring vibrancy to our lives as well as the challenges

[00:00:37] and opportunities presented by professional transitions later in life. You know our global

[00:00:42] population is aging over 700 million people are currently over 65 a figure expected to double

[00:00:50] by 2050. At the same time we're in a loneliness epidemic with more than 40% of adults over 65

[00:00:58] feeling isolated. All this points to the importance of making meaningful connections,

[00:01:04] navigating lives transitions including career changes as well as advocating for our health.

[00:01:11] We're also going to talk about the benefits of humor. Laughter reduces stress hormones,

[00:01:15] alleviates pain and even boosts the immune system. And it also helps us connect with others

[00:01:21] and hear messages we might not have been open to. I'm excited today to welcome Steve Lichtenstein,

[00:01:28] an actor and award-winning filmmaker and Dina Bakerwoods, a performer, strategist and advocate for

[00:01:34] women's empowerment. We'll hear how they use storytelling and humor to bridge gaps and strengthen

[00:01:39] individual bonds. They'll also share their personal stories about what it takes to make transitions

[00:01:45] at later stages in life. And we'll get some practical tips on how to advocate for yourself during

[00:01:50] medical appointments. Considering that the average doctor's visit lasts less than 20 minutes,

[00:01:55] it's crucial that we master effective and efficient communication with our healthcare providers.

[00:02:01] And of course we'll also share some healthy laughs throughout.

[00:02:15] This is a real special edition of our podcast. It is what we're calling a candid conversation and we

[00:02:25] have two of the most candid people I know. Steve Lichtenstein is an actor and he's going to tell you

[00:02:32] a little bit more about himself in just a moment. And Dina Bakerwoods is so much and she is,

[00:02:40] she is a performer, she is a strategist and she is a network per-aux-aux-aux-exilants. So with that

[00:02:52] introduction I'm going to actually let them talk a little bit more about themselves. So Steve and Dina,

[00:02:59] thank you so much for being with us. Dina, let's start with you. Can you give us a little bit of

[00:03:04] bio and tell us a little bit about yourself? Well I think you said it best when you said I'm a lot.

[00:03:10] I've been told that before. And there is an expression I love in a good way. There's an

[00:03:17] expression I love it says you'll never be too much for someone who can't get enough of you.

[00:03:23] Right, and I think that applies you know personally in my case as a single woman

[00:03:28] and professionally to all of us. Right, so finding that fit and to your point about healthcare

[00:03:34] and the arts and business those are my three of my main careers. I've had many different career

[00:03:42] iterations and my healthcare background was and is as a social worker I created programs for

[00:03:51] patients and families and healthcare workers around communication, therapeutic, humor therapy

[00:03:59] programs, conferences, and then in the arts both as a performer and as a producer and an arts

[00:04:07] marketer. And in the business world in marketing and branding and business development.

[00:04:13] And through all of it my throughline is people like I my passion for people is what gets me up

[00:04:19] in the morning and as you know in social work we say those who are the most isolated are the

[00:04:25] most at risk. And in business we say your network is your net worth which is still a little crass but

[00:04:32] you know surrounding yourself having social support systems and now with the loneliness epidemic

[00:04:40] helping people connect better is really what I do through comedy, through business,

[00:04:45] through healthcare community and through dating. We'll talk about all of those in just a moment.

[00:04:54] Steve, welcome also tell us a little bit more about you. Thanks for having me. Of course.

[00:05:02] A little more about me. Well there's a lot about me too. I am also a slash but more in the entertainment

[00:05:12] sector as far as a producer, writer, actor. I started filmmaking about five years ago and I produced

[00:05:21] short prior to this called Aaron with two A's and now my new one but it also deals with a lot of

[00:05:28] the things you're talking about with just human connection, health and so forth within the

[00:05:34] environmental crisis in the near future and also technology all that. I have been

[00:05:42] acting. My mother would tell you since I was a kid acting out in some cases before I knew I was

[00:05:51] a creative person but I have been for years theater, film, so many other things. There's a film

[00:06:03] coming up in fidelity that I would love to push because I was very excited to be in it with

[00:06:10] Carabono and Chris Parnell and also Willow Shields but I am multifaceted because I had a prior

[00:06:21] life which was also my day job as a project manager for a number of years. We won't go into that age

[00:06:30] thing but yeah we won't just do that but go ahead. No I love acting, I love the arts, I love

[00:06:40] storytelling and I know we'll get to that but storytelling, I can't even it is who I am

[00:06:49] it's my heartbeat, it's my life, it's saved me several times in my life and you better love it

[00:07:00] if you're going to do this. Okay and that's about it I guess. Okay well let's talk a little bit

[00:07:12] alluded to the film Aaron with two A's which has garnered a number of awards as it's been viewed in

[00:07:22] a number of film festivals and of course I love it and it tells a story about a man who decides to

[00:07:31] pursue his dream of acting at a relatively late age or later stage of life and despite the odds

[00:07:38] of success and the pushback from friends and family what were you hoping to do with this film

[00:07:45] in addition to entertaining? I'm sorry I know I'm laughing at the word entertaining it's it's it is

[00:07:54] entertaining. No no it is but everything you don't set out to necessarily writing a script to

[00:08:03] entertain somebody you you started out with something that comes through you trying to impact

[00:08:11] an audience okay in in a certain way and it it is entertainment but it's also but doing it brings up

[00:08:21] a lot of angst and experience from your own life and so forth so yeah what did I intend I intended

[00:08:29] to impact somebody's life hopefully to change something which is what you're doing as an actor

[00:08:35] as a storyteller is trying to have somebody change or at least be moved in some way by what you do

[00:08:45] and so I it's an experience when you're sitting in a Q&A and somebody stands up in the back and

[00:08:52] is a younger person and they lock eyes with you and they tell you that this changed their life

[00:09:02] this inspired there's nothing like that and if I don't it's sort of like an Oscar winning film

[00:09:12] nobody sets out to make an Oscar winning film because you can't so it's like you tell a story

[00:09:18] and that's what you're trying to do no then it sounds obviously that it was successful in that it

[00:09:25] did impact folks and Dina since I've known you it's been a relatively short period of time but I

[00:09:33] every moment is great um and again you bring laughter to all of your interactions

[00:09:40] and as you've noted before you were a performer have been a performer I've seen you perform

[00:09:47] how do you find that comedy breaks down barriers well comedy definitely connects us it normalizes

[00:09:54] and validates human experience comedy is proven to be stress relief and you know reducing stress helps

[00:10:03] women avoid preventing my risk of heart attacks and heart disease for example we all know mental

[00:10:10] health emotional health um for me comedy originally I only started doing stand-up in 2018

[00:10:17] and it was by accident it was I was leaving a single party you know if anything happens on the

[00:10:25] way from a single party and there's a comedy show going on and I'm leaving with food on each

[00:10:30] arm so wow you know type A accomplishment we have a goal let's go after it but right like as I'm

[00:10:42] saying this to you in a funny way at the heart right we're all emotional beings and what Steve said

[00:10:49] about we want to touch people appropriately um and we want to move them and we want to

[00:10:55] will vote a response whether that responses fear laughter uh action so I can honestly tell you that

[00:11:05] I never really um strategically thought about comedy but it was always a part of my life and my

[00:11:12] background and my family my uh Angelou how was I believe credited with saying people will forget

[00:11:20] what you told them but they won't forget how you make them feel I want to talk a little bit about

[00:11:26] adjacent to that is that using humor to diffuse situations or to maybe talk about things that you

[00:11:34] wouldn't want to talk about otherwise and the program that you alluded to before was that you and I

[00:11:41] enjoy reos who was a um podcaster and also started a company called like a girl media we

[00:11:49] she wanted to build community and talk about a health issue so we talked about hard health

[00:11:56] but we didn't want to do just your same old webinar you did a great job doing a great set

[00:12:03] that was around the issue and um again to make it and to make it even funnier we were all on mute

[00:12:12] so everybody was laughing but she couldn't hear it did it couldn't hear it so she got to know

[00:12:17] and I was also like in the moment the nervousness of the technical things I was not totally technically

[00:12:25] not prepared it's a uni had this wonderful uh foil because you're coming in with the science

[00:12:31] and i'm coming in with the humor and as I said I I will make up jokes I will not make up science

[00:12:38] and and it is that palatable way you know you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

[00:12:44] and in the history of the world yelling at someone never got them to do anything the lecturing

[00:12:50] and the anger and the angst and the anxiety and all the things that we are fighting against

[00:12:56] the inequality and the inequity of the systems right let's get serious for a moment

[00:13:01] but when we deliver them with a shot of humor and a funny story and when we touch the emotion

[00:13:08] and we get real about it so it's not me against you it's me and you against the problem

[00:13:15] and I I don't know that i when I started doing comedy or even just growing up I was always funny

[00:13:23] but i didn't analyze it as much now that humor there in so many ways emotionally,

[00:13:28] psychologically and on a practical level truly does help people learn better there's an app in

[00:13:36] fact called endeavor for people with children and adults with ADHD and I was just diagnosed a few

[00:13:43] years ago so i'm playing catch up on all the learning but my first reaction was my first reaction

[00:13:47] was like well that makes sense my second reaction was yay 10 million new friends I get to join

[00:13:53] another club but this I have it in their research and it's brain training and game of

[00:13:59] fighting habits and learning so like neuroscience to me fascinating they found with the women

[00:14:06] adult women and i'm assuming for the most part over 30 40 humor that the feedback they got was

[00:14:14] that the humor was the most attractive thing the most attractive part of the game like that's

[00:14:20] what helped them learn the best and I know that when we're having fun we learn something quicker

[00:14:26] and stronger and better than if it's just we're being lecture two and then once we can break down

[00:14:32] the stigma and we can talk about it in a way that isn't killing our self esteem or like oh my god

[00:14:39] that's shameful shame is a big issue with women in health care and life in general

[00:14:45] that's my long-winded serious way to deliver a punchline that's how you know again we were talking

[00:14:51] about that that's a way to approach serious or sensitive topics but you also have to be sensitive

[00:14:56] in the humor so Steve how do you approach sensitive topics with respect to when you're writing or

[00:15:05] creating something that is gonna again go out to the public i'd love to say that I do

[00:15:14] yeah i also think there's this other side that humor used well can serve people

[00:15:26] humor used in a bad way to put people down or do whatever can also put people off

[00:15:34] um i think that drama although it's drama you're told to find humor in everything

[00:15:44] even if you're doing a drama you need humor it's part of life and so as part of life there's

[00:15:52] a thin line between humor and hate or anger or whatever you want to say it's there's a line

[00:15:59] that butts up against a story told truly honestly you want to make people feel a little on edge

[00:16:07] a little bit thinking in a little insecure but then you come in with a humor of something

[00:16:14] and it changes um kind of to make the point but i don't think you shy away from

[00:16:22] something that is necessarily deep people are gonna know when they go see some film

[00:16:29] they're probably looking at something it's gonna be similar to that um

[00:16:34] it does move is again as long as it brings out emotion and moves people and are remembered for that

[00:16:43] uh you know it could it could do anything it could it could solve issues

[00:16:47] spotlight certainly wasn't humorous per se certainly move people and got some changes made

[00:16:56] as time goes by yeah movie spotlight yeah movie spotlight sorry um and i'm just

[00:17:02] saying there it's i think it's there's a simplicity and a complexity about the whole thing

[00:17:11] we started telling stories in the caveman days in the cave they would draw little things

[00:17:16] every archaeological dig as watching it the documentary other jay goes back to reenact a story

[00:17:23] and to share it with somebody they use humor back then too it's just it's human nature

[00:17:32] to want to laugh it's human nature you know they used humor

[00:17:38] because if you look at the little drawings actually a certain way you can see what are you

[00:17:41] me i can't i can some of it i can't go into so that i can't go into in this podcast but there were

[00:17:49] so there no i just say it's there there are ways to tell what they were trying to say

[00:17:55] i mean i'm not an expert obviously but you're right but your point about you know communicating is

[00:18:01] so important rather than going eye to eye sometimes people seem to be on parallel paths

[00:18:07] but dina you were going to say something what were you wanting to say i like what you said about

[00:18:11] the parallel paths um and i work with words right love words you can get me to stop using words

[00:18:20] you never thought of this humor and human hum what is the root latin greek caveman i'd love

[00:18:29] to look that up and i speak four and a half languages you think i would know this by now um but

[00:18:35] i like as you're talking steven as mitsis you're talking and i'm thinking back i never

[00:18:42] strategically or scientifically analyzed humor we talk about it we see the effects i connect with

[00:18:48] people i mean just going to uh comedy classes is a way to like you get to know a lot about people and

[00:18:55] i i not even jokingly my very first class i did my first open mic and then totally unprepared

[00:19:03] i just did it without knowing really how to stride i mean i talked for five minutes

[00:19:07] everyone got off on stage and revealed something really raw and personal

[00:19:13] whether or not it was funny wasn't even the issue we each had our five minutes

[00:19:17] one man just broke down crying his eyes out so we're all incredibly uncomfortable and then he said oh

[00:19:22] no i'm an actor i wanted to show my range and he's just like don't do that and stand up but you know

[00:19:28] maybe he's an amazing actor but i looked around as like no one's signed an NDA there's no confidential

[00:19:35] agreements we don't even know each other's last names we are getting up on a stage in front of a class

[00:19:42] okay new yorkers we share a lot we're an open people but we were sharing things that like i said

[00:19:47] things that my best friends might not have known at that point and there was a certain amount of trust

[00:19:52] um humor is a delivery mechanism it's a tool there's an expression i like i don't know who said

[00:19:59] it but i use it we're not writing for the laugh we're writing for the truth right what's the

[00:20:05] underlying message and you can deliver it in multiple ways right you know and it's interesting

[00:20:14] what you just talked about because when you were talking about the class obviously it felt safe

[00:20:23] and i have to connect the dots to perhaps like for me obviously that's what i'm thinking about

[00:20:30] is how do we as healthcare professionals or therapists or you know how do we create safe spaces

[00:20:40] so people can tell their story and i look at the healthcare system and right or wrong

[00:20:50] there isn't enough time a lot of times to tell the story so it's frustrating for the physician

[00:20:56] perhaps the physician just wants the you know the fax maim so we can tell you what the answer is

[00:21:03] but yet it's so valuable to hear someone's story in the context of what's important to them

[00:21:11] maybe what their home life is about what it is that they think is wrong you know what is it

[00:21:17] that's most troubling to them we may think it's you know one thing but it might be the fact that

[00:21:24] you know it's not about the pain it's about the fact they can't dance anymore and so

[00:21:28] I just kind of want to throw that out and because i don't have the answer i can't tell people

[00:21:34] that are listening you know have a five minute story in your pocket but i would say to the extent

[00:21:41] that you can interject that or say hey i need to tell you why that's something that i would suggest

[00:21:48] because again giving fax it is going to have some impact the real impact is how you really

[00:21:57] packaged that for that individual steve you want to say something please oh yeah no

[00:22:05] with it uh one of the master classes that i take uh they they bring in people who aren't just

[00:22:12] actors they bring in people who are either teachers or even in the medical field or whatever

[00:22:21] mostly those who give speeches but it's interesting because there's two sides to the story that

[00:22:27] you're just talking about is the medical professional who has to listen to hear

[00:22:34] and the person telling the story and what they're getting across doing something oddly enough

[00:22:41] like an acting class or some kind of thing get somebody attuned to the other people and their

[00:22:46] vulnerabilities and how they talk candidly and so forth and how to listen which can help in

[00:22:53] their profession but the person coming in when they tell a story and i'll give you an example

[00:23:00] someone that we both know and i won't mention the name will have an issue with her physical

[00:23:08] me and sort of like yeah it's not that important so when she goes to the doctor she'll tell say

[00:23:15] something about it but it's in such a way the doctor goes okay it's not a big deal whereas so if

[00:23:20] she came in and said no you have to listen this is really coming out i got it i got to know what

[00:23:26] the answer is that evokes a different emotion from the person on the other side

[00:23:32] so it's really about how you tell it but also the emotion that comes through with it

[00:23:37] you know that's really interesting because women again gross over generalized stereotype but it's

[00:23:46] through i think more often than not is that we just want to minimize things or we're so used to

[00:23:53] perhaps being told you know it's fine or whatever it is we have for anybody who's listen or gets

[00:24:02] our newsletter i hyperlinked a video of Elizabeth Banks who did a great program on heart someone

[00:24:13] having a heart attack for the American Heart Association and in the middle of all this stuff

[00:24:19] you know and she's calling 911 to I'm sorry to bother you but you know and here she is she has

[00:24:24] a life threatening issue and it wasn't so far fetched i mean again i think a lot of us are ourselves

[00:24:31] in her as she's minimizing things and so your point about giving yourself permission to

[00:24:39] be more assertive and to say what's really going on is i think a real a really important point

[00:24:49] do you know want to also go back a little bit because we i don't want to leave the humor piece

[00:24:54] you have used humor in therapeutic settings talk to us a little bit about that

[00:24:58] as a social worker right i've worked in oncology palliative care transplant floor

[00:25:05] all timers was geriatric was my specialty and the the humor there there's a couple of different

[00:25:14] facilities i worked at in the therapeutic setting especially because and in the situations i

[00:25:20] was working in where patients and families are in crisis they're in trauma they may or may not have

[00:25:27] support systems it you know having family and support systems certainly helps but it can also

[00:25:32] exacerbate the problems right when you have family conflict in the drama so being able to bring

[00:25:38] everyone together in a way that isn't conflictual that isn't me against you and release that tension

[00:25:45] and then just you're in a hospital you're recovering from illness you've had an amputation you're

[00:25:50] dealing with dementia your loved one has had a stroke and will not regain the same functions they

[00:25:56] used to this is all incredibly serious stuff just sometimes to get through the day to push yourself

[00:26:04] to do an exercise to normalize what you're gonna have to deal with in a way that isn't constantly

[00:26:10] crying and screaming and grieving um you know even my grandmother's eulogy we had jokes in there

[00:26:20] because it just relieved the tension and she was the kind of woman and this is how they ended it

[00:26:24] but she had a good sense of humor and she was an extrovert also tiny little women and I see

[00:26:29] she would have said what are you all doing here go back to work

[00:26:36] Steve you're nodding as well did you want to add something?

[00:26:40] i hope i'm not saying something offensive i don't mean to it's not that way

[00:26:45] it's just you know acting what you you you pay attention to is other people

[00:26:50] and in some females always feel as if they have to apologize in their voice

[00:26:58] so there's this question mark it's not like a something definite even if you know that black

[00:27:04] is black and white is white it's like black white and it takes so much to overcome that

[00:27:17] and experience what it's like to not do that sure my girls will roll their eyes because when we are

[00:27:27] going out to dinner and they say could i have the salmon? like of course you can have this

[00:27:34] salmon let's talk about i would like the salmon and um you know and it is i they i can see them

[00:27:43] struggle with you know changing that and i'm sure i do the same thing

[00:27:47] and again trying to not trying to but wanting to connect this to

[00:27:53] patient empowerment we don't always think about practicing to go to the doctor

[00:27:58] but i think we should practice to go to the doctor especially when you've got 15 minutes

[00:28:03] and the doctors you know busy and the doctor wants to know what's going on so he or she can

[00:28:08] help you with that issue i think we could all really benefit from saying okay i'm not going to

[00:28:16] apologize just little things i'm not going to apologize i'm going to speak my truth if you will

[00:28:24] i'm going to be as succinct as i can but i'm gonna get out what i need to get out and if i

[00:28:31] can't get it out then perhaps we can make another appointment or i can find a way to to finish up

[00:28:38] the conversation but i i think this is something that we don't talk about enough and that we need to

[00:28:46] and the other piece that you brought up Steve was i think as physicians healthcare providers

[00:28:51] we need to tune in faster you know there's a lot to be said by looking at body language listening to

[00:28:59] different syntax as well as giving that person the safe space and the permission

[00:29:07] to to speak i worked a lot with survivors of domestic violence and sometimes all you needed to say was

[00:29:18] that was really terrible because a lot of times no one says that and just to be able to validate

[00:29:26] someone's experience so again i think there's work that can be done on both um you know in both

[00:29:32] arenas but if you're going to get what you need you do need to come in prepared now dina please

[00:29:42] what were you going to say so mitsy you're coming from the point of view as a practitioner who's

[00:29:48] listening to patient stories and you mentioned that patients need to be able to tell the story

[00:29:53] in a concise way the facts this way scribble bellies notes plus the tone right if i'm like oh

[00:29:59] i have this issue but it's not a problem or i have this issue and it's a problem that's affecting

[00:30:03] my whole life you get a different it can be the same fact with a different tone the delivery

[00:30:09] and then how it's received and as a doctor like i'm not criticizing anyone now we can all use

[00:30:15] that training and here's where i think the business idea comes in and i'm sure AI can come into play

[00:30:20] of helping patients crack those stories with the fact and then the delivery of women not like oh

[00:30:28] i think it's a problem like you know made my name is leesa and we learn this in theater and this

[00:30:35] is something i coach clients and presentations so we're not reinventing the wheel but we're taking

[00:30:40] something that we're already learning in the business world of how did i mean i teach this i've

[00:30:44] learned it i consult on it how to create a presentation whether it's you know your slides your story

[00:30:49] what are the facts the executive summary taking 18 pages and synthesizing it and then how you

[00:30:54] deliver it right and then who's listening what is there will know your audience so for you as a

[00:31:01] clinician who's listening you want your your motivation is to not even jazzo do no harm but to help

[00:31:09] so you want to get that information in in all of those ways and you're like doctors aren't necessarily

[00:31:15] coached or trained in an LP or reading body language and something i've noticed a lot recently

[00:31:22] with just my own doctors and in general they're type type this is me and a doctor's office type

[00:31:27] type type type she's clickety clacky clickety clacky therapist are doing it they're missing all of the

[00:31:32] nuances i had an idea as well but i was more going into workshop in symposiums or something where people

[00:31:41] get together where the doctor gets together with patients and they work these scenarios out and they

[00:31:46] get to play act these things out and i also think it's today's society where we're less

[00:31:53] we don't have the time we don't have what a focus we don't have whatever so it's really like you

[00:31:59] don't really listen and you don't your bedside manner kind of went to the side it's all about the

[00:32:05] data you know right and turn over what's also interesting to me and i've told this story so many times

[00:32:13] but there is a linguist Deborah Tannen and she wrote you just don't understand among other

[00:32:20] books that talks about the difference between the genders and how we communicate she has one

[00:32:27] about business and this one wasn't even about health care but when i read it i had this aha moment

[00:32:33] because she talks about again gross generalization women look for context they need eye contact to be

[00:32:41] heard to your point dina and so when we tell husband john and he's watching the super bowl

[00:32:50] you know i need you to go out afterwards and get these three things and he's still looking at

[00:32:55] the super bowl goes you haven't heard me it goes yeah i heard you you need one two and three

[00:33:01] he did here because he doesn't need that context but she does so what i did is i translated that

[00:33:07] into the doctor's office and so i realized that what exactly what you said dina even though it was

[00:33:15] going to take me longer and whatever as i put down my at the time my my notes and i made sure

[00:33:24] i was looking at my female patient because that i knew was important

[00:33:36] well i want to shift a little bit because not only are you guys great storytellers and performers

[00:33:43] but you also shared that you've had a number of professional transitions

[00:33:49] and i think that that's probably more the norm and i'll include myself as well

[00:33:56] than it is the exception but it does take courage and it does take a willingness to

[00:34:06] you know learn something new so and especially as we get older

[00:34:12] steve talked to that a little bit in terms of your experience

[00:34:17] i think fear is a great motivator too

[00:34:21] okay so what were you afraid of oh god obviously you were more afraid of not doing it than doing it

[00:34:28] so i'm insecure i think somewhere along the way i got some female gene or something

[00:34:35] sorry i'm going to take offense at that i'm going to take accept that steve because that's the old

[00:34:40] school i was going to say it's because you're an actor

[00:34:44] well it either i i didn't mean it in that sense i didn't mean that it wasn't all i mean is

[00:34:51] because i tend to think everybody has certain parts of this whether they acknowledge it or they

[00:34:55] don't it's just that the sensitivity and the understanding that i have is more online with what i'm

[00:35:02] hearing from kinds of those things you're saying then then necessarily where i would identify with

[00:35:10] some football player who you know but there are people too so i can't even say that but

[00:35:16] i'm just i'm just trying to say that's you know i it's okay you can stop digging i want

[00:35:23] sorry i'm trying to save myself i really am okay good guy

[00:35:29] there's a point in this right that like that the more evolved person has a little bit of both right

[00:35:35] yeah no i agree with that i do you know whether it's been kept down in some cases or whether

[00:35:43] it's been told you can't do it from the other end it life certain things have altered it i

[00:35:50] guess for me the the reason i said fear when i was a kid particularly i was a depressed individual

[00:36:00] who probably was somewhat suicidal and you know going in first of all finding that my

[00:36:10] uniqueness in my acting pulled me out and showed me i was something more than just this alone

[00:36:22] person who you know whatever and it's sort of like you're walking around at the age of 28

[00:36:30] New York City and you're doing just odd jobs getting temp jobs and trying to exist and you've never had

[00:36:42] money you've never had a wife you've never had a relationship you've never been with anybody

[00:36:48] and at that point that's where fear came in because i had to do something

[00:36:55] and i happened to get into computers and then project management with that experience and

[00:37:06] i can tell you working in project management the guys i had are computers

[00:37:12] many stories like mine where you didn't intend to do that but you got there to make money or

[00:37:19] to do the work and it was fun it was good it wasn't it wasn't terrible but it was not something you

[00:37:24] loved and i saw other people around me and they just accepted where they were and they really had

[00:37:35] other things but they just made peace with making them hobbies or not doing anything with them

[00:37:43] because they were in the 40s and 50s and scared about what it would affect or not do

[00:37:49] i think i got lucky seriously because i met my wife which gave me opportunities i might not have had

[00:37:58] i don't know but at some point as i was doing more and more work in the 2000s and when i first started

[00:38:07] back with with some small theater i did seven plays in one year and i was a project manager

[00:38:16] and i had to go from Columbia, Maryland to Washington DC which is about an hour and a half or so

[00:38:21] even though it's 20 miles but an hour and a half to get the work i get into eight i'd leave it five

[00:38:28] hop in the car go up the baltomorge is another hour and then i'd rehearse until like

[00:38:35] eleven or whatever midnight wake up again at about four or five and start it all over again

[00:38:40] and i don't know how i did it i can't tell you today i couldn't do that to save my life

[00:38:45] but it would but back then i just loved it and i needed to my spring opened up when i got back into

[00:38:53] it and it's it's that drive it's that passion it's that love of something that there's a love

[00:39:04] hate thing going on but it basically you know that transition taught me a lot and when you do

[00:39:14] finally believe in something in yourself a little things can sprout from that and you start

[00:39:22] discovering in your sixties that all of a sudden hey i can write i can produce i can do some

[00:39:32] other things this is really cool in my life that's great you know and those transitions

[00:39:41] everything about what you do ends up in stories somewhere they're golden nuggets bad or good

[00:39:49] they're gold sure thank you for sharing that dina how about you you really have also gone through

[00:39:58] a number of transitions and i think you're starting to get back into performing and and come

[00:40:03] i mean i'm listening to steve story and there's so many messages and universal human themes and also

[00:40:11] that's your life steve that you're sharing with people there's a lot i relate to as well um i

[00:40:17] did not know what i wanted to be when i grow up you know back then or even now i was like oh

[00:40:22] trying something new i still have that figure right out defying grown up also right again you

[00:40:30] you were like you know maybe getting older but i've never grown up um we're getting any taller

[00:40:36] with your story steve so for me because i was so tight still i mean i was like i was really short

[00:40:41] growing up and i'm still short but growing up i was bullied i was teased i was excluded i was not

[00:40:48] confident um steve is pointing to himself for those who can't see yeah and i mean all everyone

[00:40:55] and agreeing understanding we all think oh no we were the outcast with the freaks the geeks the

[00:41:01] what i mean i wasn't a nerd or a geek because i didn't have those kinds of smarts but i was the creative

[00:41:05] and the artsy partsy and the weird kid um and somebody that will not say who said to me why can't

[00:41:12] you be more more and the person who said it you know that was really rough to hear um but because

[00:41:22] of that for me not knowing where i fit in not fitting in not feeling you know feeling very

[00:41:29] feeling looking acting very different than everyone else i think also humor back then

[00:41:35] it was a way i could connect it was a way i had some confidence and the stage was the one place i

[00:41:40] did truly feel confident and i wanted to go into the arts but i also realized there was no way

[00:41:44] i was gonna make it as a trip tall leaky blonde singer dancer actress it's not like back then um and

[00:41:53] i also liked business and i worked in business and then when i got into social workers because i

[00:41:59] wanted to do something meaningful and that where i felt i could really it was purpose and steve

[00:42:04] that was one of the themes from your story that i kept hearing was our what is our purpose and being

[00:42:09] able to pursue our purpose at any age and midsy to the you know to your point about the theme of this

[00:42:16] how does our work whether it's comedy acting doctor investor business strategist coach uh

[00:42:24] we'll get back to the webinars in the symposiums because i actually did that i was running these training

[00:42:29] programs for healthcare professionals um because i saw a need so it was part of my purpose of like i can

[00:42:35] help them take this really boring litany of all these issues where it sounded like they were lecturing

[00:42:42] the healthcare workers were just trying to help and turned it into here's my story where you

[00:42:46] evoke emotion and then you're like how can we fix this together and when i moved to new york

[00:42:52] marketing Broadway shows that was i landed a job through networking marketing Broadway shows

[00:42:58] and that was a dream come true and i found in new york the way people responded to me

[00:43:04] without any preconceived notion on my past or who i was it was just this is who you are and everyone in

[00:43:08] New York is different and doesn't quite fit in and is from somewhere else and that that was the

[00:43:13] validation and we're all looking for that validation whether it's at the doctor's office

[00:43:19] in our work volunteering collaborating on a podcast we want to you know validate who we are we

[00:43:26] want to look at what can we bring to the world how can we make an impact on each other

[00:43:31] and that helps our mental health and that helps create community and support so to you know

[00:43:39] wrap it all up and bring it together all the different things i've done in my life is still about

[00:43:43] connecting with people i think that what really resonated with me is is the fear of being stagnant

[00:43:52] or not doing it or regretting bigger than the fear of actually taking the risk and

[00:43:59] and something to think about so as we wrap up a couple more questions Steve you have a new project

[00:44:07] so i want to give you a chance to talk about it because you're still going full steam ahead

[00:44:12] you bet i don't know why but i am no because as the film is called it's never too late um exactly

[00:44:22] which is i i said it is about a 70 year old man hey uh in the near future of 2034

[00:44:34] he's 70 years old and suffocating from the environmental crisis and AI technology exploding

[00:44:45] and he has asthma and he suffers from lack of human contact and connection and uh loss of purpose

[00:44:58] and he had his only the poor air quality is so bad outside that now people are having to stay inside

[00:45:06] all the time and so his only real comfort is his AI virtual assistant who he names after his dead

[00:45:13] wife and who fills a certain need until she breaks down and then he has no choice but to connect

[00:45:22] to a help desk and through trials and tribulations that occur between him and the guy in the help desk

[00:45:32] he finds a human connection and he basically finds his purpose of how to go now

[00:45:42] uh before he actually does something to himself uh and then there's the ending

[00:45:50] which is a smile on my face by the way which is a huge huge you're not going to be a no spoiler alert

[00:45:57] twist you're in the midst of developing this do you want to say anything more about that?

[00:46:01] oh yeah i am doing a kickstarter at the moment

[00:46:06] at www.thenevertoolate.com and we have we are over ten thousand dollars right now

[00:46:19] our goal is thirty five so we need money or pledging as we say because if we don't get all of it

[00:46:30] we don't get any of it so this is the next two weeks are crucial and so

[00:46:39] the other thing is going to be happening next week and you're the first to hear it

[00:46:42] although by the time you hear it will probably already have happened

[00:46:47] but basically we're having a challenge and if we get a hundred new backers in the week

[00:46:52] there's another backer who will give five thousand dollars but it has to happen

[00:46:57] what's the drop dead date? the drop dead we're done March 15th

[00:47:03] so hopefully you'll hear this before but at any rate it's something not only deeply personal to me

[00:47:16] but i really have come to believe over time that this is something that's going to

[00:47:22] make people think about things that they're accepting today

[00:47:32] and i know that it's going to be something important it's going to have some impact

[00:47:38] uh do you know how about you what's next for you?

[00:47:42] to Steve's point of it's never too late i want to work with founders i want to work with

[00:47:49] organizations communities and companies in health tech, femme tech and particularly in sex tech

[00:47:57] as you know mental health and wellness, the loneliness epidemic, and sexual health and wellness

[00:48:03] in particular for women over 50 and developing adult friendships for me those are all the themes

[00:48:09] through relationships so yes i offer coaching and consulting and i speak on a lot of stages and

[00:48:16] comedy clubs and running programs and workshops but i want i want a relationship i want

[00:48:22] i want someone to put a ring on it i want someone to put a ring on it i don't know those

[00:48:31] i hate to tell you but most of our listeners, well no no but i mean oh so both so you know me

[00:48:36] it's she's like wait a minute you're talking about your love life or your business like

[00:48:40] i'm like well both but in fact today i'm watching a new mailing list and it says oh you put a ring

[00:48:45] on it you joined my mailing list right i'm in the business and pleasure of relationships

[00:48:52] i want to work with and for this industry i want a role where i can contribute and bring my age

[00:49:00] my experience my humor my business savvy and contribute and collaborate and be part of a cast

[00:49:09] so that is my offer and i asked everybody listening call me

[00:49:19] so before we totally sign off uh Steve anything i didn't ask that you wanted to make sure

[00:49:25] we mentioned to our audience i think i just spared my entire life i don't know

[00:49:32] i guess the only thing i would say that not that we left out but i want to say is

[00:49:37] be remiss if i didn't how uh not only proud but i how much i admire you for for building this

[00:49:45] empire you've built and and dina you know i you're you've done so much to impact people and

[00:49:56] to do the things you're doing it's i'm humbled myself um by all of it and all i can say is

[00:50:06] i think that the one note of why through all of us and it's very interesting is we wanted to make

[00:50:15] a difference and we wanted to impact people and make a difference in our lives and we chose

[00:50:20] things that would do that and i think to me i can't think of a better more honorable

[00:50:30] way to to address it well thank you for your kind words i really appreciate that i'm very

[00:50:39] touched thank you dina what did i forget to ask you oh i think you probably want to stop me from

[00:50:46] talking at a certain point i would end up like i don't tie my own with some grand if you don't

[00:50:53] end with some grand i mean two minutes and you're gonna lot in two minutes um

[00:51:00] you know it takes women longer than two minutes to get warmed up and tell a story

[00:51:08] you know purpose passion people power um just we're all in it together some are more

[00:51:16] together than others you know some are more connected or less connected than others but ultimately

[00:51:21] we have to come together work together and play together so whatever we're doing as hard as it

[00:51:28] may be and as frustrating as the system may be let's have fun while we fight i'll bring

[00:51:37] i'll bring the fun i promise that i add the real fun yeah i just need a man to have fun with

[00:51:48] when i'm done working i'm putting that out to all the women you know what we got a lot of

[00:51:52] Jewish mothers and others mothers out there help a girl out yeah i want to see how many rings

[00:51:58] you get out of this just i love being with lots of people and having lots of relationships but i'd

[00:52:06] like to start with one and on that note i want to thank Steve licked and stunned and dina

[00:52:17] bacoit's so much for being with me and sharing your stories and really uh sharing the humor

[00:52:26] it was wonderful thank you thank you

[00:52:36] as we conclude today's episode i hope this conversation was helpful to you

[00:52:40] and that you have a new perspective on the value of shared experiences the vital role of humor in

[00:52:46] our lives and the collective strength found in our stories we'd love to hear about your personal

[00:52:51] story or what you think about this episode so please comment on our social media or go to our

[00:52:57] website at beyondthepapergown.com and leave a message while you're there subscribe to our newsletter

[00:53:03] for updates on our podcast women's health events and activities and news on women's health topics

[00:53:09] as always thanks for joining me and take good care

[00:53:16] you

[00:53:25] this episode was produced by patrick shambayati and me and our associate producer is khala mcmalion