Connected Hearts: Exploring Loneliness, Tech, and Mental Health

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[00:01:11] Hello there and welcome to the Hit Like a Girl podcast.

[00:01:25] My name is Joy Rios and on this show we talk about how complicated the world of

[00:01:29] healthcare can be.

[00:01:30] I often liken it to a 30,000-piece puzzle and each one of our guests comes to share their

[00:01:35] expertise and more about the piece of the puzzle that they hold on to.

[00:01:40] And so with every guest we get to understand a bigger picture.

[00:01:44] So today's guest is very special.

[00:01:46] I'm going to give you a moment to introduce yourself.

[00:01:49] Please, Cindy.

[00:01:50] I'm Cindy Jordan and I'm the co-founder and CEO of PixHealth.

[00:01:54] And I know we're going to talk about it but PixHealth is a company that treats loneliness.

[00:01:59] And because we treat loneliness, we often end up doing a lot of other things like helping

[00:02:04] people go to the doctor, make sure they have food on the table, that they're taking

[00:02:08] their medicine.

[00:02:10] So anything that you can think of in this social health space, we do through loneliness.

[00:02:15] That is such important work.

[00:02:16] But I mean, it's something that I've been talking about on a regular basis just

[00:02:20] about the loneliness epidemic and the importance of community and thinking about stats.

[00:02:24] It's almost as harmful to us as smoking.

[00:02:29] And more than anything, I would love to hear...

[00:02:31] Let's start with your journey.

[00:02:33] How did you get on to this path and was this part of your plan?

[00:02:36] I'd be surprised if many entrepreneurs like myself have plans like this.

[00:02:41] But my partner and I started a company and sold it I think in 2015 and really

[00:02:48] ended up working.

[00:02:49] I sold it to the advisory board and I worked for them for two years.

[00:02:54] And when I was finished, I was kind of finished.

[00:02:56] Like, I mean, for the reasons that you address on this podcast Joy, like healthcare is both

[00:03:01] great and also very frustrating because it's one of the most regulated industries in business

[00:03:08] really.

[00:03:09] But in 2017, my stepdaughter who was an adult at the time ended up having a very

[00:03:14] bad year.

[00:03:15] She was going in and out of the emergency room.

[00:03:17] I'm benounced to us because she was 18.

[00:03:19] And she ended up in an inpatient facility.

[00:03:22] And when we sat down as a family and I asked her, hey, you know, I'm a fixer.

[00:03:27] I would really like to get ahead of having a year like this.

[00:03:31] What comes first?

[00:03:32] And she told us that it starts with feeling lonely.

[00:03:35] Now she ended up being diagnosed with bipolar.

[00:03:38] So she had a serious behavioral health disorder.

[00:03:41] But the point was is that it really was stemming from this profound feeling of

[00:03:46] loneliness.

[00:03:47] And I didn't understand that because this is pre-pandemic.

[00:03:50] Like, you go to college, you have a roommate, you come to family dinner.

[00:03:54] Why are you lonely?

[00:03:56] And when I started researching it at the time, we were the only developed country in

[00:04:00] the world that didn't treat loneliness like a diagnosable, treatable mental health condition

[00:04:06] like depression and anxiety.

[00:04:08] And generally what you need to do that is you need to prove an evidence based

[00:04:11] screening which loneliness has.

[00:04:12] And then you need a way to intervene.

[00:04:15] So what we've learned post-pandemic, because now there's a lot of money going to research

[00:04:19] for loneliness, is that actually when you are mid to chronically lonely, there are

[00:04:24] degrees just like there are degrees of depression, just like there are degrees of anxiety.

[00:04:29] There are degrees.

[00:04:30] So when you're mid to chronically lonely, the brain actually starts to rewire and it

[00:04:35] starts to believe that nothing and no one can help you.

[00:04:38] Like your doctor can't help, your medicine won't work, no one understands.

[00:04:42] And so as opposed to depression, which is really a chemical imbalance, loneliness is rewiring

[00:04:49] the hardwires of the brain.

[00:04:50] And so for Riley that sort of never went away.

[00:04:55] And then when the pandemic hit she ended up losing her struggle and died at the age

[00:04:59] of 26.

[00:05:00] And so Picks has really become not only her legacy, but my personal journey in trying

[00:05:07] to help families not have to go through what I went through.

[00:05:09] Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for sharing your story.

[00:05:12] I know that it is, I'm so sorry that Riley is no longer with us.

[00:05:16] Me too.

[00:05:17] I'm sure it's difficult to talk about.

[00:05:18] So thank you for being here to talk about her journey and what the impact that

[00:05:24] it has had.

[00:05:25] I'd love to learn more about is there actually a diagnosis for loneliness?

[00:05:29] Is that what you're telling me?

[00:05:30] Not yet.

[00:05:31] But if you've gone to the doctor probably in the last year, you know how

[00:05:35] they'll ask you social determinants of health questions like are you safe in

[00:05:38] your home?

[00:05:38] Do you have food?

[00:05:39] There's starting a lot of doctors are starting to ask the three questions

[00:05:43] associated with loneliness that the evidence based screening is the UCLA

[00:05:47] screening is what it's called.

[00:05:49] And they can tell that you're lonely, but often and this is the fragmented

[00:05:54] system of health care.

[00:05:55] Like a doctor doesn't know what to do for you.

[00:05:57] There's not a pill that can fix it.

[00:05:59] There are very few companies out there even talking about it, let alone one

[00:06:02] like mine that actually is addressing it.

[00:06:05] And there's no billing code.

[00:06:06] And as you and I both know, the minute a billing code comes for loneliness,

[00:06:11] this whole landscape is going to change.

[00:06:13] Of course.

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:14] Well, so okay, what are those three questions?

[00:06:16] Oh my gosh, I actually couldn't say them to you off the top of my head.

[00:06:19] What I can tell you is that they're not, they never ask, are you lonely?

[00:06:24] They'll ask about feeling like does anyone in your world, do you

[00:06:27] feel like people understand you?

[00:06:29] Have you felt like you've been able to engage like those kind of

[00:06:32] questions, but the way that mental health conditions get found is

[00:06:37] through evidence based screenings because they've been proven

[00:06:39] through clinical trials to actually diagnose a condition.

[00:06:44] And we've had that for loneliness for a long time.

[00:06:47] It's just that nobody until we all experienced it as a collective

[00:06:51] population actually believed that loneliness was a killer.

[00:06:55] And in fact, then I bet you a lot of people who are listening to

[00:06:58] this will say, well, yeah, you know, my grandma's lonely.

[00:07:01] We, we then pigeonholed it into a senior problem.

[00:07:04] But the AARP did a huge study.

[00:07:07] I think it was two years ago now that said, that found that the

[00:07:10] most lonely population in the world is 13 to 24 year olds.

[00:07:14] And are of a specific demographic or just in general 13 to 24 year olds?

[00:07:18] I mean, there are demographics that influence like if you live

[00:07:21] in a rural area that obviously leads to more actual physical isolation,

[00:07:25] which then of course can impact loneliness living at or below

[00:07:28] the poverty line can impact, but it does not have statistical

[00:07:32] differences between men and women, between race, nationality.

[00:07:36] It is one of those very, very, very sneaky conditions that

[00:07:41] doesn't really impact folks differently.

[00:07:44] You can be a multi-billionaire and still be chronically lonely.

[00:07:49] Sure. Yeah.

[00:07:50] I think about like Taylor Swift and they're like, oh, having

[00:07:52] no one to call at that, you've made it to the top

[00:07:54] and then who do you call?

[00:07:56] And you've made it to the top by yourself.

[00:07:59] But when I think about this, I'm thinking about, well, several things.

[00:08:03] If do you believe in the statement that technology has actually

[00:08:07] contributed to the loneliness epidemic like the use of phones

[00:08:12] and social media and like the feeling of closeness without

[00:08:17] really having a relationship to be close with somebody.

[00:08:20] And then counter question is there a possibility that

[00:08:25] technology is also part of the solution?

[00:08:27] Thank you. You set that up beautifully for me, but the truth is,

[00:08:30] of course, I mean, if you look at 13 to 24 year olds, like, you know,

[00:08:34] I'm 52, right? When I grew up, I had four friends and we fought

[00:08:38] and we made up and we loved each other and we had this what I

[00:08:41] call a mild deep relationship.

[00:08:43] I learned things about engaging with people like forgiveness,

[00:08:48] like gratitude, like the whole cycles of interacting with humans.

[00:08:52] Now, you know, you have a hundred friends, but it's a mild wide

[00:08:57] and inch deep. You know, it's very, you know, we've I'm sure

[00:09:01] you've talked about this before, but it's very easy to be a

[00:09:03] keyboard warrior, even if you're someone's friend, like

[00:09:06] you'll say things that you would never say if you were

[00:09:08] in person. The flip side of that is you don't get any of

[00:09:12] the real benefit of like being close with a community or

[00:09:17] friends that through social media that you do when you

[00:09:20] when it's in person. So the answer is unequivocally. Yes.

[00:09:24] You know, I have a 15 year old son and this I we I literally

[00:09:27] literally just gave him one social media app this year

[00:09:31] because he's a freshman. There's no reason for it.

[00:09:34] Really, there's very, very little that's a creative.

[00:09:37] Do you mind asking which one? Which one did you give him

[00:09:39] permission? Instagram mostly because I can follow him.

[00:09:42] Secondly, because like just looking at the stats, it's

[00:09:46] one of the fewer from a what I would call like a

[00:09:49] detriment side for teenagers in particular. And then

[00:09:52] lastly, because that's his friends are on that, you know,

[00:09:55] the other thing though, I mean, I'm going down a rabbit hole

[00:09:58] here and then we'll talk about how technology is also has to

[00:10:00] be a part of the solution. Like we as parents give our

[00:10:03] teenagers phones and then talk about privacy with them.

[00:10:06] There's no privacy on that phone. He doesn't get to

[00:10:09] keep a single thing. I can take it at any point. And

[00:10:11] it's not because I don't trust you. It's because I

[00:10:13] love you. It's because I want to protect you. There's

[00:10:16] this idea that there's somehow a stigma attached to

[00:10:19] looking at your kids phone. It's it's quite the opposite.

[00:10:22] The creative and multiple ways that they can get find

[00:10:25] themselves in trouble or even adults, we're all at risk

[00:10:29] and unknowingly. Yeah, we see what happens to seniors

[00:10:32] all the time through technology, you know, but the

[00:10:35] reason it has to be a part of the solution is that

[00:10:37] phones are here to stay. So when you said phone and

[00:10:39] social media, I kind of separated them in my mind,

[00:10:41] right? We're not going backwards on accessibility.

[00:10:44] We're not going backwards on ease ability. We're not

[00:10:46] going backwards on any of that stuff. Information at

[00:10:50] our fingertips. So when you talk about addressing a

[00:10:53] problem is pervasive and big as loneliness, you

[00:10:56] have to have a technology presence. Now, what

[00:11:01] picks as business model is the technology is

[00:11:03] important because it serves people 24 seven. We

[00:11:06] do not use any kind of AI interaction with

[00:11:09] humans like we're not relying on a robot to

[00:11:12] conversation to help solve loneliness, right? We're

[00:11:15] giving people self management. There is a bot in

[00:11:18] there, but he's more he's directed conversation. You

[00:11:21] can't free chat with him. But what happens on the

[00:11:24] technology is within three interactions we can tell

[00:11:27] you who's in trouble. And when they are in trouble,

[00:11:30] a flag gets thrown and I have a whole staff,

[00:11:33] hundreds of them across the country literally that

[00:11:36] we call Andy and that stands for authentic

[00:11:38] nurturing dependable your friend. And when you

[00:11:41] are suffering from loneliness or you don't have

[00:11:44] food on your table or you don't have

[00:11:46] transportation or daycare for your kids, Andy is

[00:11:49] going to call you and Andy's going to help you

[00:11:51] through it. So Andy is a peer support model. All

[00:11:55] of my folks are certified all of them are

[00:11:57] employed, but they're not physicians. They're

[00:12:00] not psychiatrists because there is no way to

[00:12:03] address the pervasiveness of that problem

[00:12:06] through nurses doctors and psychiatrists. We've

[00:12:08] got to start leveraging models like ours, like

[00:12:11] a peer model. Actually, I'm so heartened to hear

[00:12:14] that there's not an AI aspect of it because

[00:12:16] they feel like there's so much bias in the

[00:12:20] current versions of AI that if you're trying

[00:12:22] to train a model on human behavior in such a

[00:12:25] way, like it just feels like a recipe for

[00:12:27] disaster for disaster for now. Maybe it

[00:12:30] won't be like that forever. We use AI on the

[00:12:32] back end, right? Like what we'll analyze

[00:12:34] the things we do to be to be better. But

[00:12:37] really the AI just helps our humans be

[00:12:40] smarter when they're on the phone. We don't

[00:12:42] let the AI have the conversation. Plus, if

[00:12:44] you're lonely, I mean... You can go talk to

[00:12:47] chat GPT, but that's not the thing that's

[00:12:48] going to be heartwarming or really like

[00:12:50] scratch that itch. Is it addressing mostly

[00:12:53] with a phone call? Is there ever any face

[00:12:55] to face either virtual face to face or

[00:12:58] in person face to face? And I guess I'm

[00:13:00] curious about how you would implement a

[00:13:03] community for somebody because ultimately

[00:13:05] community is what we're all lacking in

[00:13:08] many ways and is one of the ways to

[00:13:10] address it. So I guess that's open-ended,

[00:13:12] but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I

[00:13:14] totally agree with you. But the way I

[00:13:15] look at the continuum is we find these

[00:13:18] folks that are like I told you in the

[00:13:19] mid to chronic phase. So that means

[00:13:21] they are really either already very

[00:13:25] sick with comorbidities, both physical

[00:13:27] and mental health comorbidities, or

[00:13:29] they're on what we call a rising

[00:13:31] risk. Like they're getting there.

[00:13:32] Like they've stopped taking their

[00:13:34] medicine if they're a chronic diabetic.

[00:13:35] They've started using the emergency room

[00:13:37] in ways that they don't need to be.

[00:13:39] They've pulled away from their family.

[00:13:41] So when people are there, we call them

[00:13:44] stuck in mud. Right? Like you can't

[00:13:46] engage in community until we get you

[00:13:48] through that. It's think of it as like

[00:13:51] the episode, right? Whereas engaging

[00:13:54] in community is the long term self

[00:13:55] management. So the answer to your

[00:13:58] question is I really do believe that

[00:13:59] an in person solution is important and

[00:14:01] frankly, PIX is looking at growing

[00:14:03] into that space. But right now

[00:14:05] everything we do is telephonically or

[00:14:07] through the platform.

[00:14:08] Okay. And then what's the experience

[00:14:09] of the platform? Like how do they

[00:14:11] engage? The bot really is like, you

[00:14:14] know, again, not AI. He's machine

[00:14:16] learning. So we program what he says

[00:14:19] ahead of time. But he acts like a

[00:14:21] friend in a coffee shop. He tells

[00:14:22] jokes. He like he asks all of the

[00:14:25] important questions without being

[00:14:28] like what I call health health care

[00:14:30] greedy. If the last piece of

[00:14:32] technology that all of us have used

[00:14:34] for health care, I bet you 99 out of

[00:14:36] 100 of us will raise our hand and say

[00:14:37] that we were told to answer 700

[00:14:39] questions. It gave nothing to me.

[00:14:41] There was not that that platform

[00:14:43] did nothing for me. And so frankly,

[00:14:46] I'm just like, well, forget it.

[00:14:47] I'll just all fill out the paper

[00:14:48] forms when I get in there or

[00:14:50] there's nothing helping me here.

[00:14:51] What the bot does is like ask

[00:14:54] about sentiment. How are you

[00:14:55] feeling today? Like, so while I

[00:14:58] may be diagnosed bipolar and I

[00:14:59] may be suffering from chronic

[00:15:01] loneliness today, I feel good.

[00:15:03] I'm happy. You know, I'm happy in

[00:15:05] my space. And so the bot will

[00:15:06] celebrate that. And but what the

[00:15:08] bot is doing is develop as

[00:15:11] capturing information, important

[00:15:12] information, particularly around

[00:15:14] social health and loneliness.

[00:15:15] And then the Andy aspect of it,

[00:15:18] do people engage with the same

[00:15:20] Andy over and over again?

[00:15:22] Like are they a sigh? We definitely

[00:15:23] try to do that. The only time

[00:15:25] you may get an Andy that's not

[00:15:26] your Andy is if you dial in to

[00:15:29] have a hotline and, you know,

[00:15:31] your Andy doesn't happen to be

[00:15:33] on that day, right?

[00:15:34] So yeah, because if you think

[00:15:35] about the peer model and when I

[00:15:37] say peer, because this people

[00:15:39] get confused, it doesn't mean

[00:15:40] we have to look like each other.

[00:15:42] It doesn't mean we both have to

[00:15:43] be 52 year old women.

[00:15:45] It means we have to have a

[00:15:46] shared experience.

[00:15:47] We take a lot of great care

[00:15:49] in pairing people with shared

[00:15:51] experience. How does somebody

[00:15:52] become an Andy? Because I would

[00:15:54] also imagine that it is just

[00:15:56] as is probably just as

[00:15:58] important for the people on the

[00:15:59] other side, like you're creating

[00:16:01] community in both ways and

[00:16:02] connection.

[00:16:03] How did you kind of open that

[00:16:05] up? And who are these folks?

[00:16:06] And if somebody wanted to be

[00:16:08] one, how would they sign up?

[00:16:09] What we actually I mean with

[00:16:10] our growth because right now

[00:16:12] we're in 83 markets and cover

[00:16:14] almost 7 million people.

[00:16:15] So we hire Andy all the time.

[00:16:18] We take very good care in

[00:16:20] reaching out to people through

[00:16:21] like traditional employment,

[00:16:23] like LinkedIn and Indeed,

[00:16:25] but actually mission

[00:16:27] forward.

[00:16:28] So we tend to pull folks in who

[00:16:30] may have been like retired

[00:16:31] school teachers or social

[00:16:33] workers or something

[00:16:36] like that. And then we will then

[00:16:37] once we hire you, we'll get you

[00:16:39] certified and trained because we

[00:16:41] serve a lot of CMS business

[00:16:42] meaning Medicaid and Medicare

[00:16:44] where we're of the utmost when

[00:16:46] it comes to compliance.

[00:16:47] So we sort of go on

[00:16:49] the search of finding folks

[00:16:52] that can be like

[00:16:53] mission driven in their work

[00:16:55] and to be totally candid.

[00:16:57] Our number one referral for

[00:17:00] hiring Andy is Andy.

[00:17:01] It's something like 87 percent of

[00:17:03] all of our hires come in from a

[00:17:05] referral of a current Andy.

[00:17:06] I can imagine that it gives

[00:17:08] them a lot of the word I'm

[00:17:10] searching, but it's not pleasure.

[00:17:11] It's just satisfaction.

[00:17:12] And then it's got to feel good

[00:17:14] to be able to support somebody

[00:17:15] in that way, especially if

[00:17:16] they're reaching out for help

[00:17:18] and don't have anywhere else to

[00:17:19] go and you get to be their

[00:17:21] lifeline to a degree.

[00:17:22] And generally, if you look at

[00:17:23] other companies in health care

[00:17:25] because everybody's about the

[00:17:26] margin and the bottom line in

[00:17:27] everything else.

[00:17:28] And don't get me wrong, I run a

[00:17:29] healthy company, but you can do

[00:17:31] that. Generally, these folks

[00:17:32] are treated as 1099s

[00:17:35] or they'll

[00:17:36] they'll be given 32 hours

[00:17:38] worth of work or 31 so they

[00:17:40] don't have to get what we offer

[00:17:41] full benefits for

[00:17:43] a one K we give every other

[00:17:44] Friday off.

[00:17:46] We have a full time therapist

[00:17:47] on staff only

[00:17:48] for our andies

[00:17:50] because that's what you hear

[00:17:52] on a daily basis.

[00:17:53] Yeah. I mean, so

[00:17:55] like I actually think that we're

[00:17:57] doing something like that is

[00:17:58] kind of breaking the mold on

[00:18:00] how to serve these folks.

[00:18:02] It sounds like it. That's what

[00:18:03] I mean, you're like you're not

[00:18:04] only helping the the technical

[00:18:06] demographic, but even the

[00:18:07] people that are supporting

[00:18:08] I'm confident that they get

[00:18:10] support as well. It's got to

[00:18:11] be self fulfilling in some way.

[00:18:14] And so you're doing good on so

[00:18:15] many levels. That's amazing.

[00:18:17] If you've been in this

[00:18:18] business long enough, you have

[00:18:19] to believe in like the tail

[00:18:20] winds, right? Like why does

[00:18:22] one company that has an amazing

[00:18:24] idea supersede the other

[00:18:26] company that has an equally

[00:18:27] amazing idea? And then so the

[00:18:29] first thing you do is look at

[00:18:30] people and that's important,

[00:18:31] like who's running the company?

[00:18:33] Where are they? What's their

[00:18:34] motivation? And then the next

[00:18:35] thing you look at is like that

[00:18:37] untangible. The thing that

[00:18:38] you can't see or put your

[00:18:40] finger on, but it's the tail

[00:18:41] winds and that has to come

[00:18:43] from being like from being

[00:18:45] good employers from doing

[00:18:47] business fairly and from not

[00:18:50] always just chasing the

[00:18:52] dollar. Like I like to tell

[00:18:53] my staff, it's one thing for us

[00:18:55] to be a company that's doing

[00:18:57] well and making money. But

[00:18:58] it's another thing to punch a

[00:18:59] hole in the earth in a good

[00:19:00] way. And so that's first.

[00:19:02] I love that. I was listening

[00:19:04] to a podcast over the weekend

[00:19:05] and it was talking about

[00:19:07] touching our heart and how

[00:19:08] much of like our heart

[00:19:09] strings are actually tied to

[00:19:11] our health in some ways. And

[00:19:13] how like you actually might

[00:19:15] get more benefits from

[00:19:16] listening to a song that

[00:19:18] makes you feel something or

[00:19:20] like taps into an emotion

[00:19:22] that you might otherwise have

[00:19:23] a hard time tapping into.

[00:19:25] And that might be better for

[00:19:26] your health than taking a pill

[00:19:28] right or a vitamin.

[00:19:30] And that's not the kind of

[00:19:31] thing that in our health care

[00:19:33] system is set up to measure.

[00:19:35] But those intangibles of like

[00:19:38] heartwarming things, things

[00:19:39] that make you feel connected

[00:19:41] and just like on a human

[00:19:42] level, you know, feeling

[00:19:45] deeply and with somebody

[00:19:47] else as having that shared

[00:19:48] experience has got to be

[00:19:50] part of our wellness culture.

[00:19:52] No doubt. If we don't

[00:19:53] understand the value of social

[00:19:55] health at this point, you know,

[00:19:57] if you look at the new CMS

[00:19:58] guidelines for 2024, what they

[00:20:00] do is they send out like not

[00:20:01] only the things that got new

[00:20:03] billing codes, but like things

[00:20:05] that are can be reimbursed

[00:20:06] in different ways and I won't

[00:20:08] get into all of that.

[00:20:09] And the majority of them are

[00:20:10] around social health because

[00:20:12] there are not enough doctors

[00:20:14] in the world. There are not

[00:20:15] enough nurses and there are

[00:20:16] not enough therapists to treat

[00:20:18] this pervasive problem, this

[00:20:20] huge gap that we're creating

[00:20:23] around social health.

[00:20:24] The more we advance in

[00:20:25] technology, the wider the gap

[00:20:28] gets. And so there's going to

[00:20:29] have to it's not just pics.

[00:20:31] I mean, of course, I'm

[00:20:31] shamelessly like promoting

[00:20:33] and believe in my company, but

[00:20:35] there are companies like mine

[00:20:36] and these are models that are

[00:20:38] going to have to be embraced

[00:20:39] as a part of like care.

[00:20:42] I totally understand where

[00:20:43] you're coming from. I feel

[00:20:44] similarly in like in my

[00:20:45] mission of trying to tip the

[00:20:47] scale of like people at

[00:20:48] positions of power and who gets

[00:20:50] a voice and all that.

[00:20:51] But when I see other people

[00:20:53] doing the same thing that I'm

[00:20:54] doing, I don't I zero percent

[00:20:56] feel threatened. I'm just like,

[00:20:57] good, we need more of that.

[00:20:59] If there are more people out

[00:21:00] there that are after a similar

[00:21:03] mission than we all win

[00:21:04] because there's it probably

[00:21:06] would be impossible if you

[00:21:07] were able to tackle every

[00:21:09] single lonely person in the

[00:21:10] world with your business model.

[00:21:12] It is important that we one

[00:21:14] of the things like prepping

[00:21:15] for the podcast is some of

[00:21:16] the questions that you've asked

[00:21:17] before. And one of them was like,

[00:21:19] you know, what would you change

[00:21:20] in health care?

[00:21:20] And the short answer would be I

[00:21:22] would have a billy coat around

[00:21:23] loneliness. But the longer

[00:21:25] answer would be that right

[00:21:27] now, the way that we

[00:21:29] incent folks to provide care,

[00:21:31] it needs to move.

[00:21:33] It's disparaging, firstly.

[00:21:34] Number one, hospitals get paid

[00:21:36] a lot of money when people

[00:21:37] show up at their ED, but health

[00:21:38] and plans aren't incentive to

[00:21:40] send people the ED.

[00:21:41] The ED is really supposed to

[00:21:43] be for emergencies, right?

[00:21:44] Right. Incentives are not

[00:21:45] aligned and fee for service just

[00:21:47] has to go away.

[00:21:48] It can't just be I did

[00:21:49] something so I should get paid.

[00:21:51] Outcomes should be a part of

[00:21:52] everything that we're doing.

[00:21:54] And when you talk about outcomes,

[00:21:55] there's there's no more powerful

[00:21:57] model than a peer model.

[00:21:59] And one of the things that

[00:22:00] I've always had a hard time

[00:22:01] understanding how to measure is

[00:22:02] prevention because you want

[00:22:04] people like how do you have a

[00:22:06] way to do it? Because it's

[00:22:07] like that would be the best

[00:22:09] outcome as somebody not getting

[00:22:10] sick or not needing to

[00:22:12] you know, use the system in

[00:22:13] the first place. But that's

[00:22:14] a really hard to put on a

[00:22:16] spreadsheet and say I saved you

[00:22:18] X amount of dollars insurance

[00:22:20] company. The only way really to

[00:22:21] do it is self reported, right?

[00:22:23] You asked the member, hey, do

[00:22:24] you feel better? Did it stop

[00:22:26] you from using a higher level

[00:22:27] of service? We actually do

[00:22:28] that. But is that valued

[00:22:30] because you know, all pretty

[00:22:31] much all of my clients are

[00:22:33] health plans? No, it's not.

[00:22:34] That's not something that an

[00:22:36] actuary can put into an ROI

[00:22:38] calculation and say, oh, look

[00:22:39] look with this.

[00:22:40] So look, you have to follow

[00:22:42] the money in health care

[00:22:43] very, very unfortunately. But

[00:22:45] you know, we've got to start

[00:22:46] putting more value on to your

[00:22:49] point. Like if I got you into

[00:22:51] the doctor and I made sure that

[00:22:52] you were back on your medicine,

[00:22:53] I probably stopped you from six

[00:22:55] months from now having an

[00:22:57] expensive emergency room or

[00:22:58] God forbid inpatient admission.

[00:23:00] But how do you quantify that?

[00:23:02] Okay, so I love everything

[00:23:03] that you're doing. How do

[00:23:04] people get involved if they

[00:23:06] want if they are feeling

[00:23:07] lonely or and kind of

[00:23:09] address the Andy aspect. But

[00:23:11] I mean, if somebody wants to

[00:23:12] be involved in your sphere,

[00:23:14] where do you direct them?

[00:23:15] Well, we do have a free version

[00:23:17] of pics on the on, you know,

[00:23:20] the stores, the Google and

[00:23:21] you know, the Play Store and

[00:23:23] the Apple Store. Admittedly,

[00:23:24] it doesn't have the

[00:23:25] Andes attached to it. Like one

[00:23:27] of the things I'm doing is

[00:23:28] like kind of growing up as

[00:23:30] a company is my goal is that

[00:23:32] a consumer will never pay for

[00:23:33] this. So going through health

[00:23:35] plans is an insurance is one

[00:23:37] of the ways that I'm doing

[00:23:38] that. But that's great because

[00:23:39] you said earlier that you're

[00:23:40] tied to Medicare and Medicaid

[00:23:42] so for the populations that

[00:23:44] are in probably a need of

[00:23:45] your services most are how

[00:23:48] many states have you been able

[00:23:49] to tackle through Medicaid?

[00:23:51] I think we're in at this point

[00:23:53] 37 or 38 December is our

[00:23:56] biggest month. So we've closed

[00:23:58] like a lot. So we're in and

[00:24:00] you know, if you look at the

[00:24:01] map, guess what states were

[00:24:02] not in fee for service states?

[00:24:03] Well, congratulations on that.

[00:24:05] That's massive. Yeah. You

[00:24:07] know, there's an OK. We're

[00:24:08] kind of approaching time,

[00:24:10] but I actually have another

[00:24:12] set of questions if you are

[00:24:13] available. Oh, sure. And it's

[00:24:15] sort of has it has to do with

[00:24:17] entrepreneurship and I'm

[00:24:18] wondering if you have any

[00:24:19] advice for others. And I'm

[00:24:21] just going to say like I'm

[00:24:22] like other entrepreneurs who

[00:24:24] are LGBTQ plus like do you

[00:24:27] have any advice for them?

[00:24:28] Because I imagine that

[00:24:29] navigating health care as a

[00:24:32] business person and all of

[00:24:34] what is available and not

[00:24:35] available. All of the whole

[00:24:37] landscape is kind of

[00:24:38] intimidating. Do you have

[00:24:40] advice for folks? I think

[00:24:41] that my advice is probably

[00:24:43] not earth shattering, but I

[00:24:45] and the other reason I can

[00:24:46] give this advice is because I

[00:24:47] did it sort of wrong. I think

[00:24:49] in my first company in the

[00:24:50] very beginning, but part of

[00:24:53] I think being a successful

[00:24:54] LGBTQ entrepreneur is to be

[00:24:57] LGBTQ. Like I used to worry

[00:24:59] when I was pitching investors

[00:25:01] that if they knew I was a

[00:25:02] lesbian, then they wouldn't

[00:25:03] give money to me. And the

[00:25:05] truth is those are folks I

[00:25:06] don't want their money.

[00:25:07] Right. There is a lot of

[00:25:09] about being out, you know,

[00:25:11] candid. Like there's not

[00:25:13] enough of us that are being

[00:25:15] represented in the

[00:25:15] entrepreneurial space to begin

[00:25:17] with debunking some of the

[00:25:19] stereotypes around what LGBTQ

[00:25:22] entrepreneurs look like. And

[00:25:23] frankly, I don't even know

[00:25:24] what those are, but you

[00:25:26] know, it's

[00:25:27] Lawned.

[00:25:29] Where's glasses?

[00:25:31] We just did a private

[00:25:33] equity recap in July. And

[00:25:35] we ended up getting quite

[00:25:37] a bit of interest. And I was

[00:25:38] meeting with a private equity

[00:25:39] firm and the gentleman sitting

[00:25:41] across the table for me said,

[00:25:43] the majority of your

[00:25:44] management team is women. Do

[00:25:45] you hire men? And I said, well,

[00:25:47] firstly, said no human ever

[00:25:49] that has that comment ever come

[00:25:51] out of anyone's mouth. But I'll

[00:25:52] entertain it anyway is that

[00:25:55] we just hired the best people

[00:25:56] for the job. And what he was

[00:25:58] in effect doing was being like,

[00:26:00] do you like men or are you a

[00:26:01] manhater?

[00:26:03] And in his like self way. And

[00:26:05] so my point to him was like,

[00:26:06] we're not meant to do

[00:26:07] business together. Yeah. And

[00:26:09] that's okay. There's plenty of

[00:26:10] business out there to be had.

[00:26:12] That's right. Yeah. Well, and I

[00:26:14] guess given the fact that

[00:26:16] there's so few people that are

[00:26:18] out, I think that there's a

[00:26:20] connection between this

[00:26:21] conversation around loneliness

[00:26:23] because I think people on the

[00:26:24] queer spectrum feel there's

[00:26:26] a shame, unfortunately still

[00:26:28] for a lot of people in stigma.

[00:26:30] And I'm just how do we take

[00:26:31] this away? How do we make that?

[00:26:32] I mean, that's not an easy

[00:26:34] question to answer. I don't

[00:26:35] expect you to have the

[00:26:36] answers because I think that

[00:26:38] when you see the onslaught of

[00:26:39] bills being presented that are

[00:26:41] countering, you know, people's

[00:26:43] existence, it's really hard to

[00:26:45] just see like to say like, oh,

[00:26:46] just let it go. Just be yourself.

[00:26:48] And, you know, there's not any

[00:26:50] consequences to that because

[00:26:51] unfortunately there are, but

[00:26:53] it's a tough space to

[00:26:55] navigate. And I love to be

[00:26:58] able to bring our audience to

[00:26:59] something that is hopeful.

[00:27:01] And so if you have any, you

[00:27:03] know, words of encouragement

[00:27:04] for people that it's worth

[00:27:06] to be authentic and be

[00:27:08] themselves out in the world,

[00:27:10] I would love to hear it.

[00:27:11] Well, I can tell you that the

[00:27:12] most encouraging thing is that

[00:27:13] it feels better for you.

[00:27:15] It feels better for me to walk

[00:27:17] authentically through this

[00:27:18] earth. And then secondly, I

[00:27:20] know that and oftentimes,

[00:27:21] like particularly when we think

[00:27:22] about politics and stuff, we

[00:27:24] can feel insignificant. You know,

[00:27:25] we always talk about one vote

[00:27:26] or one I know, I know

[00:27:29] for a fact that in the two

[00:27:30] businesses I've done and the

[00:27:31] investors that I've

[00:27:32] interacted with in the people

[00:27:34] that I've employed, that being

[00:27:36] an out lesbian has changed

[00:27:38] people's minds. And so maybe

[00:27:40] it was 10 people, maybe it

[00:27:42] was 20, maybe it's 100. I don't

[00:27:44] know the number, but those 10

[00:27:46] will affect another 10 who

[00:27:47] will affect another 10. And

[00:27:49] that's the best way I can. Is

[00:27:51] it easy? No, it's not easy.

[00:27:52] I feel bad for my son, you

[00:27:54] know, because he's like when

[00:27:56] they make Mother's Day gifts

[00:27:58] at school, like he's there

[00:27:59] the longest, you know, but

[00:28:00] we also like we also gave

[00:28:02] him permission to be proud

[00:28:04] about his family. And I know

[00:28:05] that that has impacted his

[00:28:07] little group of friends. And

[00:28:08] so I guess what I'm trying to

[00:28:10] say is it might feel

[00:28:12] inconsequential to like, if

[00:28:15] I'm on an airplane and someone

[00:28:16] asked me where my husband is,

[00:28:17] I correct them, oh, my wife.

[00:28:19] And that small one thing

[00:28:22] can make a difference. And you

[00:28:23] just never know where it's

[00:28:24] going to go next. And so I'm

[00:28:26] not trying to say that this

[00:28:27] is easy. It's not. I grew up

[00:28:29] in the 80s. That wasn't easy.

[00:28:31] But it is impactful.

[00:28:33] Yeah, I 100% agree with you

[00:28:35] that every single one of us

[00:28:37] like what we do matters. And

[00:28:38] even if it doesn't feel like

[00:28:40] it at the time, but it

[00:28:41] absolutely does. And even if

[00:28:43] you can affect one person

[00:28:45] in the form of like being

[00:28:47] empathetic, being a good

[00:28:48] listener, accepting being true

[00:28:50] to yourself, being a good

[00:28:51] example, or showing

[00:28:54] kindness and supporting a

[00:28:56] friend in need. You know,

[00:28:57] those are the types of

[00:28:58] things that connections and

[00:29:00] relationships and ways of

[00:29:02] walking through the world that

[00:29:04] even if it's a small circle,

[00:29:05] like it matters a lot.

[00:29:07] Like the whole starfish theory,

[00:29:09] right? You're like 100%.

[00:29:10] I just want to say thank you

[00:29:11] for what you are doing in the

[00:29:13] world because it really

[00:29:15] matters. And thank you

[00:29:17] for opening up and talking with

[00:29:18] me about this. And I'm excited

[00:29:20] to share your journey and all

[00:29:22] you're doing with our listeners.

[00:29:23] Well, thanks for having me.

[00:29:24] I mean, it's it's wonderful

[00:29:26] to be like invite. You know,

[00:29:28] I've done a lot of podcasts

[00:29:29] in the last however many

[00:29:30] years and not all of them

[00:29:32] are as encouraging and open

[00:29:34] as you are. So thank you for

[00:29:36] letting me be my pleasure.

[00:29:38] So can I if people want to find

[00:29:40] you online, if they want to work

[00:29:41] with you, if they just want to

[00:29:43] follow you and admire you, where

[00:29:44] would you send them?

[00:29:45] LinkedIn is probably the best.

[00:29:47] Although I mean, you can always

[00:29:49] reach out to me directly.

[00:29:50] I'm Cindy at picks health

[00:29:52] p y x health dot com.

[00:29:54] I will include that in the

[00:29:55] show notes. Thank you for

[00:29:56] everything that you're doing

[00:29:57] and I appreciate you as well.

[00:29:59] Thanks, Joy. Thanks for having me.

[00:30:01] Thanks for listening.

[00:30:02] You can learn more about us

[00:30:04] or this guest by going to our

[00:30:05] website or visiting us on any

[00:30:07] of the socials with the handle

[00:30:09] hit like a girl pod.

[00:30:10] Thanks again. See you soon.

[00:30:12] Again, thank you so much

[00:30:14] for listening to the hit

[00:30:15] like a girl podcast.

[00:30:16] I am truly grateful for you

[00:30:18] and I'm wondering if you could

[00:30:19] do me a quick favor.

[00:30:20] Would you be willing to follow

[00:30:21] or subscribe to this podcast

[00:30:23] or maybe leave us a rating

[00:30:24] or review? Or if you're feeling

[00:30:26] extra generous, would you

[00:30:27] share this episode on your

[00:30:29] Instagram stories or with a

[00:30:30] friend? All those things help us

[00:30:32] podcasters out so much.

[00:30:34] I'm the show's host Joy Rios

[00:30:36] and I'll see you next time.