Healing The Healers: Unpacking Burnout

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[00:01:08] Hello there, welcome to the Hit Like a Girl podcast.

[00:01:11] My name is Joy Rios, the show's host and this is a show we talk about how complicated

[00:01:15] health care can be.

[00:01:16] So liken it to a 30,000 piece puzzle that keeps getting bigger and bigger and each

[00:01:20] one of our guests brings their area of expertise and piece of the puzzle.

[00:01:24] And so I'd really like to give you a moment to introduce yourself and share a little

[00:01:28] bit of your expertise.

[00:01:29] Sure.

[00:01:30] I'm Jesse Gold.

[00:01:31] I'm a psychiatrist by training, also anthropologist.

[00:01:35] So I have a master's in anthropology.

[00:01:37] I actually did my master's thesis on pre-med as a culture.

[00:01:40] So I've always been really interested in how we train, why we train people the way

[00:01:45] we do, why the people that seem really nice and normal don't seem to be getting through

[00:01:50] the process all the time.

[00:01:52] And so that has transitioned into doing a lot of well-being work at sort of a

[00:01:57] leadership level in my institution and externally do a lot of advocacy and writing and have been

[00:02:04] sort of normalizing mental health particularly and healthcare workers in whatever way I can.

[00:02:08] I feel like that is sort of the topic of the day, mental health and healthcare workers

[00:02:12] and burnout in general.

[00:02:14] And I know that's an area of your expertise.

[00:02:16] Can you just wax poetic theme of like?

[00:02:20] Wax poetic on burnout.

[00:02:22] So I think when I think about burnout, I think that nobody actually knows what it

[00:02:25] means.

[00:02:26] I think we use the word a lot.

[00:02:28] Like we do a lot of mental health words, which is interesting because we don't

[00:02:31] actually like mental health for the most part, but we incorporate the words a lot

[00:02:35] and say we're depressed, but we just really mean sad.

[00:02:37] We say we're anxious, we just mean worried.

[00:02:39] Burnout, I feel like we just mean we are tired from work.

[00:02:42] But really what it is is this sort of mix of emotional exhaustion.

[00:02:47] So feeling just used up at the end of the day, depersonalization or cynicism.

[00:02:51] So feeling disconnected from work or the people there and then a reduced

[00:02:54] sense of personal accomplishment.

[00:02:56] So feeling like you're not getting things done.

[00:02:58] And when you have those things, which is super common in medicine, about 50%

[00:03:02] sort of depending on the study and we are talking to and who you're assessing,

[00:03:06] you know, you don't want to work and burnout's a risk for a lot of things.

[00:03:09] So I think about burnout as a risk factor for depression, for substance

[00:03:14] use, for then kind of going zoned in on what we do for patient error,

[00:03:19] for patients staying in the hospital longer, for decreased patient satisfaction

[00:03:23] and then sort of zoomed out even more expensive for the hospital system.

[00:03:27] Because people hang out in their job, don't get a lot done and then they leave.

[00:03:31] So while they're hanging out and not getting a lot done, that's hard

[00:03:35] because someone's picking up the slack, but also somebody in the hospital

[00:03:38] system is sitting there not doing anything and getting paid and then they leave.

[00:03:42] And it's expensive to hire and train.

[00:03:45] And it's really hard for patients if you don't have access to that one

[00:03:49] person who does that one thing.

[00:03:50] And so burnout has like pretty pervasive effects on the system and the people

[00:03:55] who work within it.

[00:03:56] And is one of those things that isn't sort of just a buzzword and is a really

[00:04:01] important thing that we need to be talking about in our field and not

[00:04:04] just kind of using as a thing to talk about when we feel like it.

[00:04:08] I feel like there's this personal impetus on burnout where it's

[00:04:11] sort of like the individuals cross to bear, but it really can be

[00:04:16] the outcome of a system that is broken and complicated and not really meant for

[00:04:21] wellness. Can we talk about that?

[00:04:24] For sure. So I think that we love to frame things like it somehow,

[00:04:29] the person's fault that they feel that way, like especially with mental health.

[00:04:34] But I think in in physicians or healthcare, especially that

[00:04:38] resiliency is used this way, which is like, oh, well, if you could be

[00:04:43] more resilient than the fact that the system is inherently broken,

[00:04:47] wouldn't be a problem.

[00:04:48] You know, and I think that's really hard for people because that's not true.

[00:04:52] What I think of when I think of resiliency is more like the system

[00:04:55] is horrible and broken.

[00:04:57] And we should say that and we should say that like over and over and over again.

[00:05:00] But if you want to survive it and you don't want to quit, it's OK if you do.

[00:05:04] But if you don't want to quit, you have to kind of figure out how to deal.

[00:05:07] And that figuring out how to deal part is the resiliency part.

[00:05:10] And I think it is on the individual in some capacity as much as like people get mad

[00:05:15] at me for saying that, I think it's a parallel process.

[00:05:18] So I think the system needs to change so badly.

[00:05:22] And there's a lot of things about it that need to change and it's slow to change.

[00:05:26] But at the same time, the individual needs to figure out their role

[00:05:30] within the broken system and how to either survive it or leave it.

[00:05:34] And so it is kind of on both.

[00:05:36] You had mentioned something in your talk today, which was like this

[00:05:39] comparison to other workers.

[00:05:41] And so can you speak to the stats around folks who have maybe taken

[00:05:45] a survey about how they think that they're doing versus how they actually are?

[00:05:50] One of my favorite studies is on this like small group of surgeons.

[00:05:54] And basically, they had them do the male well-being index,

[00:05:56] which for all intents and purposes is just a very common measure

[00:05:59] of well-being in health care.

[00:06:01] And they basically had the bottom 30 percent.

[00:06:03] They said, like, how do you think you do?

[00:06:05] We're talking bottom 30 percent compared to norm.

[00:06:08] So like lots of people have done this survey and they're in the bottom 30

[00:06:11] percent based on their results.

[00:06:12] And 71 percent of those people are like, I'm average or above average.

[00:06:16] Right. And sometimes people will be like, these are surgeons.

[00:06:19] They just always think they're above average.

[00:06:20] And that's not necessarily the case.

[00:06:22] I actually think a lot of us would do this, which is to say that

[00:06:24] when we're feeling bad, we can probably find someone else who's

[00:06:28] feeling just as bad in medicine or like we can go, well, I didn't sleep,

[00:06:31] but I slept more than John or I'm sad.

[00:06:34] That person's also sad.

[00:06:36] So I guess that's just medicine.

[00:06:37] And so we kind of get into this cycle of saying like medicine is a field

[00:06:42] in which we are supposed to not eat, not sleep, not function, mostly be burnt

[00:06:46] out and sometimes be sad.

[00:06:47] And because of that, it can feel hard to know when like your sadness

[00:06:52] or your burnout is a problem, because it seems like it just is like

[00:06:56] an expected outcome instead of like, oh, I should get help for this.

[00:07:00] And then also if you choose to get help for it, it feels like

[00:07:03] somehow you're problematic because everyone else seems to be as miserable

[00:07:08] but fine.

[00:07:10] And like just because our culture normalized miserable does not mean

[00:07:13] that that's cool, right?

[00:07:14] So I think we just need to figure out how to be OK with the norm

[00:07:19] actually being not miserable.

[00:07:21] But even if we continue to have a system in which a lot of people

[00:07:24] are miserable, that it's OK for the people who realize that

[00:07:27] that's not where they should be or want to be, that they actually

[00:07:30] can get help.

[00:07:30] If there was a waving of a magic wand in a perfect world,

[00:07:34] like how what would that help look like?

[00:07:36] And would it be individual or systematic?

[00:07:39] Both. So again, more like most health care workers

[00:07:43] are probably love me to answer this just based on systems.

[00:07:46] I'm a person who doesn't like existing when I can't do anything myself.

[00:07:51] And so I like to have both answers because most system

[00:07:54] changes are not going to be accomplished by the individual

[00:07:57] health care worker.

[00:07:58] And so system changes are going to look like what like staffing

[00:08:01] support, safety support, what does EMR look like and how do we make

[00:08:06] sure that's not destroying our lives?

[00:08:07] Why prior off and all of this paperwork, there's just a lot

[00:08:10] of people controlling medicine that aren't practicing medicine.

[00:08:13] And so the system has a lot of issues and a lot of that needs

[00:08:16] to change in sort of the individual level.

[00:08:19] It's like, how do I cope day to day to deal with this stuff?

[00:08:22] But it but in order to do that, we have to get more comfortable

[00:08:25] talking about these things.

[00:08:26] So like, I think peer support and supervisor support are really

[00:08:32] critical. And so I like to advocate for a more open and

[00:08:36] vulnerable workplace.

[00:08:37] So for me, that doesn't mean that everyone has to be like,

[00:08:41] Hey, I've been burnt out, or I have depression.

[00:08:43] I'm on meds.

[00:08:44] Like some of us need to and I haven't.

[00:08:46] I'm happy to continue to do that.

[00:08:47] But I think that some of us just need to say like, I had a hard day.

[00:08:52] How's your day been?

[00:08:53] Right?

[00:08:53] Or like when we're doing Eminem and like going through these

[00:08:57] mistakes that we make in a case or an error or something,

[00:08:59] actually asking like, well, what did that feel like?

[00:09:02] And like normalizing actually having feelings about that stuff.

[00:09:05] Right? We just don't incorporate any of that.

[00:09:08] And so it feels weird when we have the feelings.

[00:09:11] And I think if we normalize it more, we'd feel more

[00:09:14] comfortable talking to people when we're really struggling

[00:09:16] or that we think we're struggling and getting help when we need it.

[00:09:19] On the flip side of that, you were talking about values

[00:09:22] and things that people care about and things that bring them purpose.

[00:09:26] It's sort of the flip side of burnout and sort of how do we

[00:09:29] reflect and think about or how can health care workers reflect and think

[00:09:32] about what is what they're grateful for, what they're happy about?

[00:09:36] And maybe that it can actually like tie into combating.

[00:09:39] I think a lot of health care workers here, that stuff

[00:09:41] and feel like it's really woo-woo and weird and like get really annoyed

[00:09:45] because it's like gratitude or like you want me to say positive things.

[00:09:49] And I'm angry, right?

[00:09:50] Like it just doesn't feel good, right?

[00:09:52] And I get it completely and I'm as skeptic as is.

[00:09:56] But I think a lot of the evidence is pretty good on a lot of these things.

[00:10:00] And like what that means is that like outside of support,

[00:10:03] like supportive workplace, etc., the things that are helpful against burnout

[00:10:06] or like meaning and purpose, how do you find meaning and purpose?

[00:10:10] And that sounds really lofty.

[00:10:13] But really it's like, what gets you out of bed in the morning?

[00:10:15] What do you get joy from?

[00:10:17] What like hour by hour are you actually enjoying?

[00:10:19] Like we never do that.

[00:10:20] We just look at like Mondays or bad days.

[00:10:22] Well, what part of Monday is a bad day?

[00:10:24] Do you have control over any of that?

[00:10:26] Maybe you don't because you're a resident.

[00:10:28] Maybe you do because you're a little further along in your career, right?

[00:10:31] So I think that there are things like that that we can look at.

[00:10:34] Can we incorporate more meaning once we figure out what that is?

[00:10:37] Values-wise, is our workplace matching up with our values?

[00:10:40] I think we learn over time the way we like to be communicated

[00:10:43] with the way we like to feel supported, the way we like to do work.

[00:10:47] And sometimes our workplace can adjust to that.

[00:10:49] And sometimes it can't.

[00:10:51] And I think that's important to figure out along the way

[00:10:53] and then try to find either ways to change it

[00:10:57] so that you feel like your current place can line up with that

[00:11:00] or ways to leave you.

[00:11:01] And then, you know, like sort of the gratitude version of it.

[00:11:04] Like evolutionarily we're designed to notice the danger of things,

[00:11:08] the mistakes, the errors, the things that can hurt us.

[00:11:10] And that makes sense, I think, right?

[00:11:12] Like big scary animal that can eat me run, right?

[00:11:15] But we aren't going like, that was a nice animal.

[00:11:17] I'm gonna remember that, right?

[00:11:18] And so, but we can and that helps

[00:11:21] because we're so focused on the negative

[00:11:23] that we forget that like anything good happened.

[00:11:26] And there's a bunch of stuff out of Duke.

[00:11:28] If you just look up like Duke Well-Being tools,

[00:11:30] they have a lot of these like bite-sized things

[00:11:32] that you can just kind of do a text message program

[00:11:34] where you do three good things at the end of the day

[00:11:36] and you just tell them what happened for 15 days

[00:11:37] and that has evidence in burnout and happiness

[00:11:40] and well-being like up to a year, which is really awesome.

[00:11:43] And it sounds just mind-blowing that that's even true.

[00:11:46] But you can do the same thing in a gratitude journal.

[00:11:48] You can do the same thing in like,

[00:11:50] paying attention when someone says something nice

[00:11:52] and like writing it down, right?

[00:11:53] So like if I'm typing a note while a patient's talking,

[00:11:56] they say something nice about me or my patient care.

[00:11:59] I might actually put that in the note

[00:12:01] to then like take off later

[00:12:02] and put in a piece of paper and keep

[00:12:05] because when we get bogged down, that's all we remember.

[00:12:08] We don't remember someone said nice things to me today

[00:12:10] or like I did something good today

[00:12:11] or I helped someone today

[00:12:12] and I think it can help us do that.

[00:12:14] It's not a toxic positivity of like,

[00:12:18] yay, medicine's awesome and everything about it's great

[00:12:21] and my days are awesome.

[00:12:22] It's like, you know what?

[00:12:23] Like the system's broken.

[00:12:24] I didn't like this about my day and I helped someone

[00:12:27] and I helped them in team and right?

[00:12:30] So it's not either or it's both.

[00:12:32] There's something around that was like,

[00:12:33] oh did you have a bad five minutes

[00:12:35] or did you have a bad five, a bad day, right?

[00:12:38] And a lot of times we can turn those five minutes

[00:12:39] into carrying with us the rest of our day.

[00:12:42] Yeah, I mean, that's why like,

[00:12:43] therapists would tell you sit in your feelings,

[00:12:45] name your feelings, identify your feelings

[00:12:46] because if you bury them and deal with them later

[00:12:49] they get bigger.

[00:12:50] If you try to just like kind of stew, right?

[00:12:54] Sometimes the stewing doesn't help sometimes

[00:12:56] an attempt at coping to mask them

[00:12:58] just it furthers it along too.

[00:13:01] So it is helpful to be like,

[00:13:03] hey, like I feel angry right now and that's cool.

[00:13:05] Like I'm allowed to be angry.

[00:13:07] This workplace is making me angry.

[00:13:08] Yeah, totally legit.

[00:13:10] Can you talk a little bit about being somebody

[00:13:12] who perhaps diagnosis burnout versus also somebody

[00:13:15] who has experienced it?

[00:13:17] Sure.

[00:13:17] And you may not recognize.

[00:13:18] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:20] So at the like kind of early on in the pandemic

[00:13:23] I took on a role of wellbeing in my hospital system

[00:13:26] really helping our department target

[00:13:29] and support the wellbeing of employees

[00:13:31] and was like doing a lot of outreach

[00:13:33] and doing a lot of talks

[00:13:34] and at the same time really seeing employees in clinic

[00:13:36] and was saying yes to a lot of things

[00:13:38] and feeling like I'm not on the front lines

[00:13:40] in the hospital so I can be the front lines

[00:13:41] this way and this is how I give back.

[00:13:43] I'm not at risk, I'm behind a computer.

[00:13:45] This is how, and I just kept doing

[00:13:46] and doing and doing and I was falling asleep

[00:13:49] every day after work for like hours.

[00:13:50] Like I would, it was five, I was done.

[00:13:52] I fell asleep till nine.

[00:13:54] I didn't eat dinner.

[00:13:55] I woke up and then I'm like, great, what do I do now?

[00:13:58] And then I would like be up

[00:13:59] and then my sleep was all wonky

[00:14:00] and it just turned into this thing

[00:14:02] where I was just like, it was just like

[00:14:04] unbearable fatigue where even if I tried to stay up

[00:14:07] because I knew it was bad for my sleep

[00:14:08] I'd fall asleep without even realizing it.

[00:14:10] And I was like, oh gosh, something's wrong with me.

[00:14:12] And I kind of pushed it and pushed it

[00:14:14] definitely past early warning signs or anything like that

[00:14:17] and definitely to the point where

[00:14:18] I was like something's weird and wrong

[00:14:21] and I went to a primary care doctor

[00:14:22] who's like, fix me because that felt like the answer

[00:14:25] and gosh you love there to be something medically wrong

[00:14:28] with me like I have mono or whatever.

[00:14:30] And I had low B12 and I was like, yeah

[00:14:32] they just need to shoot me with B12

[00:14:34] and then I'll be fixed and that didn't work.

[00:14:37] And then I took a couple of days off

[00:14:39] and thought that would be enough.

[00:14:40] And my therapist was like,

[00:14:41] it's sort of like being a boat with holes in the water

[00:14:44] and you took like a couple of pails of water out

[00:14:47] and you're still a boat with holes

[00:14:49] which was kind of harsh metaphor about a helpful one.

[00:14:52] And so time off didn't help,

[00:14:54] the primary care doctor didn't help.

[00:14:56] And my therapist was like, hey

[00:14:58] so you're a frontline worker who sees frontline workers

[00:15:01] in the middle of the pandemic

[00:15:02] like what do you think it is?

[00:15:04] And I couldn't, I mean, burnout was

[00:15:06] not even on my differential

[00:15:08] and I probably gave a talk on burnout the day before.

[00:15:11] And then I started laughing and was like, I'm burnt out, huh?

[00:15:15] And she was like, why are you laughing?

[00:15:16] And I was like, well, she's feeling embarrassed.

[00:15:18] Like you kind of feel like you should know

[00:15:20] because especially if you're like a burnout expert

[00:15:23] you should know but we're not very good

[00:15:25] at identifying things in ourselves

[00:15:27] or practicing what we preach

[00:15:28] or whatever you wanna say, like we're so human.

[00:15:31] And a lot of times people go to therapists

[00:15:32] for that very purpose, to identify something

[00:15:35] you don't know.

[00:15:36] And so, for me having that experience

[00:15:40] like informed my understanding of how easy it is

[00:15:43] to blow past a lot of the early warning signs

[00:15:46] like for me being very angry at emails

[00:15:48] or patient messages or things like that

[00:15:50] are not the same as falling asleep every day after work.

[00:15:52] And so like the adjustments you can make are different.

[00:15:55] And so that's been helpful for me.

[00:15:56] It also has helped me realize like if I'm doing this

[00:16:00] like of course everyone else is right?

[00:16:03] Like it's just impossible for like all my patients

[00:16:06] are everyone else in healthcare who don't spend like every day

[00:16:09] thinking about burnout, how would they know?

[00:16:11] Like how are they supposed to know if I'm not aware of it

[00:16:14] and I'm not paying attention to it or I'm blowing past it

[00:16:17] because I don't think it's a thing that matters.

[00:16:18] And so like I think it's helped me

[00:16:21] just kind of put into perspective

[00:16:22] like how hard it is to identify the stuff in ourselves

[00:16:25] to take care of these things

[00:16:27] to prioritize our own like wellbeing

[00:16:29] in the setting of really feeling

[00:16:31] like you have no ability to do anything

[00:16:33] but help everybody else, especially during a pandemic.

[00:16:36] And I think has helped me sort of say like of course you don't know

[00:16:40] like how do you expect yourself to know?

[00:16:42] I don't know and I appreciate knowing that

[00:16:44] and I'm happy to tell people that story

[00:16:46] even if it's like vulnerable in some capacity

[00:16:49] just because I think like they should know.

[00:16:52] Yeah. How do you advise for people to

[00:16:54] I'm sure they reach out when things are awful

[00:16:56] and they're at their worst

[00:16:58] but how can we get better at self identifying

[00:17:01] understanding the challenge in that

[00:17:03] that people should and could and should reach out sooner

[00:17:06] than they might be inclined to?

[00:17:08] Yeah. I mean, I think we need to pay more attention

[00:17:11] to our own barometers.

[00:17:13] So like I can tell you the definition of burnout all day

[00:17:15] but what does that mean to you?

[00:17:17] Like what do you do when you feel like that?

[00:17:20] So when I'm a 10

[00:17:21] I must sleep every day without realizing it

[00:17:23] when I'm a one

[00:17:24] I'm like a little bit more snippy

[00:17:26] like I might start ordering more takeout

[00:17:28] I might you know like these like little things

[00:17:30] that you sort of like blow past and you're doing

[00:17:32] but that's me right?

[00:17:34] What is it like for you?

[00:17:35] If you're actually taking stock in your mood too

[00:17:38] and like your sleep and things that maybe matter

[00:17:41] to like your well-being or emotional well-being

[00:17:43] if you're paying attention to that over time

[00:17:45] you also notice differences

[00:17:46] if you don't pay attention to that over time

[00:17:48] you just feel like everything's bad

[00:17:50] when you finally look right?

[00:17:52] Like you're sort of like

[00:17:53] okay after two and whatever years of the pandemic

[00:17:56] I'm finally gonna go how do I feel?

[00:17:58] And then you do and you ask

[00:18:00] and you're like wow that was horrible

[00:18:01] I'm depressed right?

[00:18:02] But if you had asked yourself two years before

[00:18:04] would you have felt better?

[00:18:06] Maybe you know you might have been able to

[00:18:07] stop the 10

[00:18:09] not everyone obviously biology is a big thing

[00:18:12] family history is a big thing

[00:18:13] but I think paying attention to your own sort of center

[00:18:17] and what it looks like for you is really critical

[00:18:19] because you can learn a lot of things from yourself

[00:18:23] right?

[00:18:24] Like that's why therapy is cool

[00:18:25] but I think in general like I'm angry right now

[00:18:28] why am I angry?

[00:18:30] What made me angry?

[00:18:31] Who made me angry?

[00:18:32] What was going on that made me angry?

[00:18:34] Am I angry all week?

[00:18:36] Am I angry today?

[00:18:37] Am I angry this month?

[00:18:38] Like what's going on right?

[00:18:39] And like it really helps you

[00:18:40] like emotions inform like way more

[00:18:42] than we give them credit for

[00:18:44] and it feels silly

[00:18:45] we weren't taught it in school when we were kids

[00:18:47] and we need to do it

[00:18:50] and we spend so much time asking other people

[00:18:52] and like even just pausing and being like

[00:18:55] hey like how am I this week?

[00:18:56] It's like I'm not telling you to do it all the time

[00:18:58] I think it's unhelpful to do it all the time

[00:19:00] like you know people who wear those like

[00:19:03] Apple watches or like Fitbits or whatever

[00:19:05] like I don't think it's helpful

[00:19:07] when my patients tell me they slept

[00:19:08] like 0.1 of an hour less last night

[00:19:10] that's not helpful that's obsessive

[00:19:12] and scary and you're never gonna be able to fix that

[00:19:14] right but if you once a week

[00:19:16] or couple times a week are like how am I doing?

[00:19:18] How's my sleep?

[00:19:18] How am I feeling?

[00:19:19] How's my interaction with other people?

[00:19:21] Like you just get a better sense of like

[00:19:23] your normal and your fluctuations

[00:19:26] and people's baselines are totally different

[00:19:28] like we learn about this stuff in second

[00:19:30] like you wanna pathologize a lot of things

[00:19:32] because you do

[00:19:33] but a lot of people have a lot of mood changes

[00:19:36] at baseline that aren't pathologies right

[00:19:39] it's just like they're more reactive

[00:19:41] or they have like thoughts

[00:19:44] that maybe are different than other people's thoughts

[00:19:46] and those are just their thoughts

[00:19:48] and so knowing those differences

[00:19:49] you don't actually know that unless you ask right

[00:19:52] like what's going on with yourself

[00:19:53] you said something about just emails

[00:19:55] you're like I am the receiver of emails

[00:19:58] on a regular basis

[00:19:59] and of course your patients are anxious

[00:20:00] and so they're gonna send a lot of emails

[00:20:02] and then all of a sudden you're recognizing

[00:20:05] that you're more upset than usual at receiving emails

[00:20:08] yeah like if someone sends me one more email

[00:20:11] I will throw my computer across the room right

[00:20:13] like that's a very significant reaction to an email

[00:20:17] right and I think a lot of people feel like that

[00:20:20] and it's actually not about the email

[00:20:22] it's not even about probably that one person

[00:20:23] who sent the email that tipped you off

[00:20:25] it's like for me

[00:20:26] I spend all day being asked to do things

[00:20:28] or being or like having to hold things for other people

[00:20:31] and being asked to do more

[00:20:33] just feels like at a certain point

[00:20:34] I'm just like I can't

[00:20:35] that's really what emotional exhaustion is

[00:20:38] but sometimes that manifests in other emotions

[00:20:40] like anger right

[00:20:41] I love the reframing of anger

[00:20:42] I'm named Joy

[00:20:44] and so I feel like I was always taught to not really

[00:20:46] well I've got to be happy right

[00:20:48] it's part of my name

[00:20:49] and anger has been such a blessing to me

[00:20:52] in the last few years

[00:20:53] and I'm glad to hear you talk about it

[00:20:55] in a way that it is like keeping us safe

[00:20:57] it's protecting us

[00:20:59] it has a job

[00:20:59] let it do its job

[00:21:01] yeah have you ever seen the movie Inside Out

[00:21:03] yeah so I think like

[00:21:04] I sometimes recommend that movie to patients

[00:21:07] and they're like to just recommend a Disney movie to me

[00:21:08] but like it's really helpful

[00:21:10] because it basically is saying like happiness

[00:21:12] and joy have their roles

[00:21:13] anger and sadness have their roles

[00:21:15] like they all have their purpose

[00:21:16] and like we have those feelings and reactions for a reason

[00:21:20] like we evolved as species to have them as reactions

[00:21:23] right anger is saying like

[00:21:25] something here is threatening me

[00:21:28] and I should run

[00:21:29] maybe your detector is off

[00:21:32] which happens to a lot of us

[00:21:34] right but maybe it's not

[00:21:36] and maybe your environment is

[00:21:38] or maybe that person is

[00:21:39] or maybe that conversation is

[00:21:41] or whatever it is

[00:21:42] but like you get a lot of cues

[00:21:43] if you start to realize like

[00:21:44] what does anger feel like

[00:21:45] why am I angry

[00:21:46] what's going on

[00:21:47] and yeah I don't at all hate anger

[00:21:49] I like anger

[00:21:50] it teaches me a lot

[00:21:51] I get people who tell me

[00:21:53] when whenever anger shows up for me

[00:21:54] they're like I like angry joy

[00:21:56] it's been kind of fun

[00:21:57] and I'm just like

[00:21:58] oh I'm gonna lean into angry joy a little bit more

[00:22:00] it works usually good for me

[00:22:02] and for my team

[00:22:03] you have been in a lot of

[00:22:05] like the public eye in ways

[00:22:07] is that comfortable

[00:22:08] is that uncomfortable for you

[00:22:10] how do you lean in and jump into that

[00:22:13] or what's your feeling

[00:22:14] I will mostly lean into it

[00:22:16] because I think that

[00:22:17] in the role I'm in

[00:22:19] being able to be

[00:22:20] somewhat vulnerable is important

[00:22:22] I think it helps to change culture

[00:22:25] and I believe in storytelling

[00:22:26] as a method of changing culture

[00:22:28] I don't think you owe anybody your story

[00:22:31] and I don't think you owe

[00:22:32] anybody every part of your story

[00:22:34] I think it's your story right

[00:22:36] and so you should tell it

[00:22:37] when you want to tell it

[00:22:38] how you want to tell it

[00:22:39] and there have been times where

[00:22:40] that has changed for me

[00:22:41] my boundaries with that have changed

[00:22:43] what I'm talking about has changed

[00:22:44] I also tell trainees this

[00:22:46] like you don't want to talk about it

[00:22:47] when you're training

[00:22:47] don't

[00:22:48] right it's cool

[00:22:49] figure it out later

[00:22:49] if you want to talk about it

[00:22:50] but I think in a lot of ways

[00:22:52] I've become comfortable with that position

[00:22:54] because I think

[00:22:55] someone needs to be advocating for this publicly

[00:22:57] and if it happens to be me

[00:22:59] it is

[00:22:59] and that's okay

[00:23:00] like I'm cool with that

[00:23:01] I just happen to be a little bit better

[00:23:03] at sort of putting words together

[00:23:04] than some people

[00:23:05] and like that's also okay

[00:23:07] you know some people do the research

[00:23:08] some people discover the medication

[00:23:09] some people translate that for everybody else

[00:23:11] and I sort of have fallen into the world

[00:23:14] of translating that for everybody else

[00:23:16] and that's okay

[00:23:16] that's sort of what

[00:23:17] anthropology is

[00:23:18] it's sort of what

[00:23:19] I've always like writing

[00:23:20] sort of

[00:23:21] the storytelling aspect of it

[00:23:23] is really important

[00:23:24] and I think you can't advocate for

[00:23:26] changing a system

[00:23:27] and changing a culture

[00:23:28] if you don't also

[00:23:29] advocate in some way yourself

[00:23:31] so

[00:23:31] well thank you for all of the work that you do

[00:23:34] it really does make a difference

[00:23:35] and

[00:23:36] I just appreciate your time

[00:23:37] and everything that you

[00:23:39] put out into the world

[00:23:40] so if people want to follow you

[00:23:42] or connect

[00:23:42] where would you recommend

[00:23:43] that they find you

[00:23:44] sure

[00:23:45] thanks for having me too

[00:23:46] so easiest way to get me

[00:23:48] is Dr. Jesse Gold

[00:23:49] on most platforms

[00:23:51] so Instagram, TikTok

[00:23:52] the artist formerly known as Twitter

[00:23:54] I spell Jesse

[00:23:56] J-E-S-S-I

[00:23:58] and also DrJesseGold.com

[00:24:00] I have all my writing there

[00:24:02] like things that I've done

[00:24:03] and you can message me through there too

[00:24:05] fantastic

[00:24:06] thank you for

[00:24:07] thanks again

[00:24:07] you got it

[00:24:08] all right

[00:24:10] thanks for listening

[00:24:11] you can learn more about us

[00:24:12] or this guest

[00:24:13] by going to our website

[00:24:14] or visiting us on any of the socials

[00:24:16] with the handle hit

[00:24:17] like a girl pod

[00:24:18] thanks again

[00:24:19] see you soon

[00:24:20] again

[00:24:21] thank you so much for listening

[00:24:23] to the hit like a girl podcast

[00:24:24] I am truly grateful for you

[00:24:26] and I'm wondering if you could do me

[00:24:28] a quick favor

[00:24:28] would you be willing to follow

[00:24:29] or subscribe to this podcast

[00:24:31] or maybe leave us a rating or

[00:24:33] review

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[00:24:34] extra generous

[00:24:35] would you share this episode

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[00:24:38] or with a friend

[00:24:39] all those things help us

[00:24:40] podcasters out so much

[00:24:42] I'm the show's host Joy Rios

[00:24:44] and I'll see you next time