Nurse Leader Rhonda Collins Spills the Tea on Healthcare Workplace Violence

[00:00:00] Welcome to the HITea With Grace podcast where we spill the tea on HIT. I'm honored to welcome Rhonda Collins, DNRNFAAN and we're a huge fan of hers. So thanks for joining us today, Rhonda. Thank you, Grace. And I'm a huge fan right back.

[00:00:16] So thank you for the opportunity. We're so excited to learn from you today. So let's start off by having you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us about your career path that brought you to your current position at Contact IO.

[00:00:29] Right. Well, I obviously I've been around a while. I know young young lady. But you know, I've been a nurse for well over 30 years and I started at the bedside in labor and delivery. I was actually a high risk labor and delivery nurse,

[00:00:46] which means if you were just having a baby, I was not your nurse. You had to have some sort of horrible event going along with it, either preterm labor or, you know, preeclampsia or something like that. It was basically critical care of labor and delivery.

[00:01:00] I loved that work and I did that for a very long time. I opened up some small rural hospitals, helped them establish their obstetrical services and all that goes with that. I even actually took my sewing machine to work and made curtains

[00:01:13] for the postpartum rooms in this little rural hospital. So I've done all kinds of things, brought all the policies and procedures, hired all the nurses, that sort of thing. I ended up in leadership nursing leadership. It was just a natural progression of going on from having a bachelor's

[00:01:29] in nursing to acquiring a master's in nursing leadership. And I became the vice president of the Women and Children's Hospitals at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas. Loved that work. Obviously, a huge service with many talented physicians and nurses and wonderful patients and loved doing that.

[00:01:48] And then I had a change in my personal life, a really, you know, just a sentinel event, if you will. My father died unexpectedly in a motorcycle crash. And my mother, thank you. It was just, you know, it turned my family upside down

[00:02:04] and my mother needed more of my time. And as you know, working in a hospital is a 24-7 responsibility. And so I made the decision to step over into industry. And I went to work for a little pump company called Alaris

[00:02:20] that became Care Fusion that is now BD. And I was a clinical executive and there I did. I managed pharmacists and nurses doing implementations of these first software driven drug library and fusion pumps. And then from there, I went over a short time to Massimo.

[00:02:38] And then I was at Fresenius CABI, which is a European company. But they had market share in Europe with their IV pump, but they launched it in the United States. And from there, I spent eight and a half years at Beaucera working on physician nurse communication,

[00:02:55] shortening the time between urgent communications, ensuring that notifications and alarms came to the right device at the right time to the right people, those sort of things. And then I was off for a year or so. Motorcycles follow my family.

[00:03:12] My husband was in a near fatal motorcycle crash. And so heartbreaking. You know, I have a very uncomfortable relationship with motorcycles and I was off caring for him because he, you know, has been left with some permanent handicaps. Yeah. And then through relationships and people I knew,

[00:03:33] I heard about contact. And I honestly, one of the reasons that I went back to work was I want to do something that makes a difference for my profession. And I, you know, it's sort of when you're looking at,

[00:03:47] OK, what kind of legacy am I going to leave? And what can I do to make sure that the profession that I love so much is in a better place than I found it? And how do I use because I've been working in technology for song.

[00:04:02] And how do I make technology practical and usable and enhance the workflow and enhance the practice rather than causing all these disruptions and changes and all these kinds of things? And I was really, you know, after Covid,

[00:04:17] a lot of the conversation that was happening was it's just so hard to work. We don't have what we need. We can't find what we need. You know, patients wander all of these things that happen. And people are angry and frustrated and they take it out on us.

[00:04:34] And so I work in this sort of, you know, uncomfortable environment now. And I thought, how great would it be to solve that problem that we find people, we find places, we find things and we just make your work better. Preach. Preach.

[00:04:51] You know, it's funny when I think of nurse leaders that have like made that transition into health care informatics, I think of your name. I think, you know, around a college, she's a leader extraordinaire. So, you know, what initial initially drew you to focus

[00:05:06] now on workplace violence in health care? You know, why do you consider it such a critical issue for nursing professionals today and forever? Yeah. You know, it started. I'm going to tell you probably six or seven years ago, I started getting calls from state nursing associations like,

[00:05:23] you know, Ohio Nurses Association or Texas Nurses Association. And they wanted me to speak and they wanted me to speak on workplace violence. And they were like, we need people to talk to us about this, because if you go out to the Internet and start Googling,

[00:05:38] you're going to go down some places. I mean, where nurses are talking about their own personal experience, their own personal events and how it changed. And then I was listening to a nurse leader speak and she was talking about how one of her nurses in the emergency room

[00:05:56] just reached across a patient to adjust an IV line. And she woke up five days later in ICU because the patient had just come up out of the bed and beat her unconscious. And she has no recollection of it.

[00:06:10] And I really decided that anything I do with any kind of technology has to solve this real problem. It's and I think, you know, I wrote an e-book recently just to lay out some of the facts so we can follow that.

[00:06:27] And one of the things that really struck me is that two nurses are assaulted every day, one in four nurses report being assaulted. So obviously it's a pandemic of its own. And that's who reports it. Right?

[00:06:43] When I had my health incident in 2017, for a year and a half, I was in and out of the ER every single day. I saw aggression towards nurses. And it's horrifying to see as another patient, you know, and stressful, let alone the nurse who is actually being assaulted.

[00:07:01] And how often do they really even report it? Not all the time, because that's seen as, well, what did you do wrong? You know, how can nurse leaders create a workplace culture that encourages the reporting of these incidents?

[00:07:13] What steps should they take to make sure that all the staff are feeling safe and supported in that? Exactly. You know, OSHA reports that they estimate that 80 percent of all workplace violence events are not reported. So, I mean, that number is staggered.

[00:07:28] So what I look at it is back in the 70s, you know, when we when a medication error was made in the hospital, it was a very punitive experience. And so nurses would selectively report because it depends on self-reporting usually.

[00:07:44] And because the experience of reporting was so negative. And then we realized what we were doing, that we were not getting good information, we were not getting good data. We were not treating it as a learning experience. So we had this massive change in how we managed

[00:08:02] medication errors for nurses. And it was we treated it as a learning experience. We treated it as something that we can all talk about and learn from rather than this horrific, punitive experience. I think that's exactly where we are right now

[00:08:19] talking about workplace violence, because the culture has always been what did you do to get the patient to do that? Or you need to learn how to handle your patients. You need to manage your work environment better, be more alert. And it was always this negative approach.

[00:08:38] And then obviously, even coworkers just saying, well, I don't know what you did. I've never had that happen. That that whole experience that we have all the time. So I think nurse leaders are looking at this as we are going to adopt

[00:08:53] a zero tolerance policy, both for violence by outside members and lateral violence, you know, because violence can be bullying, racist comments, you know, intolerance, all of those things. But hospitals are really working, creating policies and creating strategies and looking for how do we solve these problems

[00:09:16] and how do we create a place where everyone feels valued and safe? Because I've had nurses say to me just in the last couple of years, every night when I go to work in the emergency room,

[00:09:27] I kiss my family goodbye like it's the last time I will ever see them because they work in an inner city hospital. And the violence is something that they have to cope with every day. So I do believe talking about it, which is what we're doing,

[00:09:43] bringing it to light, bringing the prevalence to light. And then all of the professional associations like the American Nurse Association and AONL, all of these groups talking about and creating supportive documents that help nurse executives to really take a position of zero tolerance

[00:10:03] and elevate and support their staff when they are reporting. Absolutely, absolutely. It seems like a no brainer. Like why hasn't this happened until like, you know, at this catalyst, but then, you know, nurse leaders like yourself and others that are saying, no, this needs to stop.

[00:10:19] It's time to make a change is hugely impactful. Can you kind of elaborate a little bit on the patient assessment process for identifying those who might exhibit aggressive behavior? How can health care providers use that information to help prevent some of the workplace violence?

[00:10:33] Yeah, I've had the privilege of hearing a few hospitals talk about how they do it. There is one indicator for violent behavior that Luck and Jackson et al, these authors came together and put together. But it's indicators for violent behavior. And it's the stamp assessment.

[00:10:51] That's an acronym stamp. So S is for staring and making eye contact when an individual comes in. And this is like a predictor of this person could be prone to violent or unpredictable behavior. So the first thing is the staring and eye contact.

[00:11:08] The other is the T, the tone of voice and how they use their voice. A is anxiety. M is mumbling, talking to themselves, being unpredictable in that. And then P, of course, is pacing. So stamp is an assessment that nurses can do, especially in an ED

[00:11:27] and understand this patient needs to be tagged as someone who has a potential. And that's a very basic one. There's a couple of others that the CDC recommends. One of them is a triage tool where they're just asked, you know, five questions, which are basically,

[00:11:44] have you been injured or troubled with any kind of abuse or violence in the past? Because as we know, people who have been victims tend to be perpetrators. They haven't had help in managing that. And if they say yes, you can say, has this ever happened before?

[00:12:05] You know, or how did it happen? Do you have anyone at home you can turn to? Do you feel safe at home? Those kinds of questions. Do you feel so badly right now that you've thought of hurting yourself? Any of those questions?

[00:12:18] And are you angry about what has happened? And you're you're able to assess from that. And then the nurse can enter that into the patient record in the document. And that patient can be flagged as someone who might have unpredictable behavior.

[00:12:32] And then finally, there's a third one that's called the assault and homicidal danger assessment tool. And it basically on a scale of one to five, it lists out characteristics that says if they've had no experience, assault or homicidal tendencies and there are one, there are no risk.

[00:12:51] Has had occasional issues that happen, then there are two. Has had frequent assault or homicide ideation just through assessing and asking questions. There are moderate risk, et cetera. So that assessment is called People in Crisis. And Lee Ann Hoff is the author of that.

[00:13:10] But these are some tools that hospitals use. And then on top of that, they create their own assessment tool to be able to assess patients when they come in. And I do think that that's the first step. When we talk about workplace violence, we're always talking about

[00:13:23] how do we train the nurse to defend themselves? How do we train the nurse, you know, to respond to this and report to this? And I believe we have to start with the patient, which is the source. It's the source of the event.

[00:13:37] So what do you do to manage the patient? What is the patient's experience when they come into the hospital? Do they have long wait times? Do they have confusion? Or are they not assessed well at the beginning to understand

[00:13:53] that this patient may spiral off or they, you know, they may have unpredictable behavior. So I'm a huge advocate of let's assess the patient and understand what we're working with and then move on from there. It seems like if you change that view, then it would honestly

[00:14:10] take that pressure off of the nurses that makes them not want to report. You know, if you're putting the the onus on the patient who is, you know, or a caregiver who's being, you know, aggressive, then it's taking that pressure off of the nurse.

[00:14:22] I went to integrate security or law enforcement into the health care setting when there is a workplace violence potential. I know one time I was at the hospital with my husband who was hospitalized and someone next to us was screaming,

[00:14:38] I murdered my baby and just having a crazy just just wild. And I started sobbing because it was so like just traumatic what this woman was going through. And they they sent personnel, security personnel into the situation and, you know, tried to calm her down with different things.

[00:14:56] And I'm just like, at what point do they make that best practice choice to do? Like, is there a best practice on how to make that choice? Like she was screaming for like an hour or two about like, I murdered my baby. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[00:15:09] Just crying. The patients are crying. Everybody's crying. And it was just like this is so dramatic. So yeah, like when do you make that call to bring somebody in? You know, yeah. You know, when you feel like the individual or the patient

[00:15:23] has become uncontrollable or they're saying things that have that they've caused harm or they could harm themselves or someone else, then you call security. But I will say the best relationships are when you develop these policies and procedures, because frankly, the Joint Commission and everybody is requiring hospitals

[00:15:42] to have policies and procedures on managing workplace violence, on managing reporting, on managing the process throughout the hospital. You have to have security involved, you know, because they're the experts on how to contain the perimeter, how to manage egress and ingress, all of those things.

[00:16:01] And I think when they're part of the solution, they can give extraordinary professional guidance on how do we respond to these events. They have the nurses have to be able to call for help, which is where I get into technology solutions.

[00:16:18] But then you need to connect your security in the hospital. And a lot of smaller hospitals who can't manage 24 hours security can call local law enforcement and with the same technologies just to ring out and say we have to have help here.

[00:16:37] I was working with a hospital a few years back that they had issues because they were inner city and a large congested city. And a nurse called for help, and it was almost five minutes before there was a response.

[00:16:51] And the nurse had been badly injured by the time help arrived. And using a technology solution can reduce those minutes to seconds. So everyone knows immediately. And so I think that's where security comes in to understand the perimeter, to understand their discipline

[00:17:12] and understanding of people response and how to contain and manage people. And they are a critical part of the de-escalation team, for sure. Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, kind of moving into the health IT side of the world. How can wearable DURIS technology

[00:17:30] enhance safety of nurses in real time situations? Can you share any success stories from your experience working in the health IT space in this area, you know, where this technology or technologies can make a significant impact to help protect nurses?

[00:17:45] You know, I think that's important because everybody has a policy and a procedure, everybody. But there's times it doesn't work. You know, it's times when things happen that you're just not able to follow whatever has been established. Many times in hospital rooms, there's a secret red core,

[00:18:03] but it's on one wall or at the head of the bed or you reach for the nurse call light to call for help. And as you know, I did communication assessments for a really long time and I probably had over 15, 20,000 answers from nurses

[00:18:19] on how they communicate and always in the top five was shouting. My worry is always nurses shouldn't be reduced to shouting when something is happening to them. And so where is the best place to put notification or a call light, if you will, on an individual?

[00:18:38] And that's in a wearable. And so it, you know, it needs to be first of all, it needs to work every time. It needs to be dedicated to what it's doing. It has to be lightweight and comfortable, because, as you know,

[00:18:52] nurses are loaded down like pack meals sometimes. I mean, I can only imagine. I can only imagine when I was practicing. I had this little couch thing that had my bandage, scissors and all my, you know, my writing utensils.

[00:19:08] And it had my flashlight, you know, looking eyes and all the things that I needed. And it was all just stuffed in that little pouch. And I would I would pick it up out of my locker and stick it in the front pocket of my scrubs.

[00:19:19] And my scrub top was like this all day long, because that pouch was so heavy, it just pulled everything. But I couldn't do without any of it. I needed all of it. And so I think that when you look at duress technology,

[00:19:35] nurses will be like, oh, my God, it's another thing that I have to, you know, it's another way I add to. So that's why I say it has to be really functional and lightweight and integrate with what they're already doing

[00:19:47] and make it where they can just quickly press the button. And we also know that sometimes in a violent situation, when you start yelling for help or when the patient can hear you, it actually can escalate the situation because it antagonizes them.

[00:20:02] So to be able to do it quietly and quickly and summon response in mere seconds is really I think it hardwires the policies. It hardwires the relationship with security and it hardwires the knowledge that the people outside this room know that I need help.

[00:20:22] I'm a big advocate of do everything you have to do, meet all the requirements. And then let's finalize that with having a technology approach that. And of course, joint commission requires that you report every event. Well, the technology then can generate the report

[00:20:40] using artificial intelligence over time as the data is gathered. You can start to see where the events happening, how long are they lasting? What is the response? And that gives you all that data then that you can more intelligently over time, refine your process and understand

[00:20:58] where the events are happening and what we need to do about it. Wow. It seems like I mean, technology can be very impactful here. And it makes sense. You know, it's all like intuitive technology and it's there. It's available.

[00:21:09] It's just getting, you know, hospitals to see as important and to use it and make sure that they're protecting their staff. Right. What is your perspective and what are your feelings towards current legislative efforts to protect health care workers? Are they strong enough?

[00:21:24] Are they out there? Are they doing anything? And, you know, how important is a federal standard for this critical issue of literally the lives, people putting their lives on the line to protect other people and save other people's lives?

[00:21:39] Yes. And as you know, there's a few states that have made their own state laws. But the problem with going state by state is every state can make it different. You know, they can make one little difference or one little change

[00:21:53] or one little protocol, a little bit different. And then nurses who work in interstate compacts who are licensed in more than one day, they have to be reversed every single time they go into another state to work. So a federal policy would solve that problem.

[00:22:09] So we just understand it's like it's like stop signs. Everybody stops at a stop sign because everybody does it the same way. And I think that that is the benefit to it. And frankly, health care is one of the places of the highest level of workplace violence.

[00:22:26] Isn't that just the craziest thing? And it's, you know, isn't it crazy? Because patients are many times at the worst point in their lives when they come in. I think in general, people are angry. We have a lot of things we have to work through post-COVID

[00:22:46] and the current environment in our country. And I think that people, when they don't feel like they're in control, they can react in a very negative and sometimes violent way. I do think that we need to elevate it to a federal level, have the conversations openly and frequently

[00:23:07] and really focus on addressing this issue with multiple resolutions. So that's why I frankly advocate for a federal approach rather than a state by state by state. Thank you so much for advocating for that.

[00:23:20] You know, and I think that the more we get the word out about this, the more critical it is. So folks, listeners, you know, at your hospitals, wherever you are, really raise your voice about the importance of this and share this episode.

[00:23:35] Share this episode with your network because it's a critical topic and it's critical that we get this solved. Rhonda, I'd love to now dive into your personal life and some leadership strategies that you have had throughout your life as a nurse leader. So we'll start by asking,

[00:23:52] what are things that you do in your personal life to help work your best and make a difference? You know, do you have habits or strategies or things that you do that just keep you able to just keep moving forward,

[00:24:04] especially tackling huge topics as big as this one and many others you have for years? I have been throughout my career, a huge advocate of relationships. And as a woman working in professional roles, and I tell younger women all the time, you are the CEO of you.

[00:24:28] And when it comes to you, you make the decisions that work for you, your family, your best life. I'll tell you the opportunities them follow when you become focused on this is what I want to accomplish. And I think that the most success comes

[00:24:49] when we look at issues that are within our profession, within our realm, within our family, because many of us who become patient advocates are because either we have personally been impacted or a family member. And you've just seen the cluster that can sometimes be accessing care.

[00:25:11] I feel like in leadership, it's always being aware and listening and think, can I make a difference? And every time you see a problem, go, is this is this a problem I can solve? I don't have that skill set, but I can do this one.

[00:25:25] And I can do this. And it's the little things that over time become the big things. It's have an opinion, create a network of professionals that you can learn from. I have to say, I've had some incredible mentors, and I'll just give you one example.

[00:25:41] When I left the hospital and went into health care industry. Oh, my gosh, I had no idea what I was doing. I had been working cost per patient day and staffing for years and years. And all of a sudden, I'm in a business where people are having

[00:26:01] tense conversations because they haven't met their quota for the quarter. I was like, I don't know that I can do this. And honestly, for a year, every day I woke up with my head in my hands going, I just I'm not really sure I'm in the right place.

[00:26:18] And then I met with some nurses. This is when I was working for the company that sold the software driven IV infusion pumps that had a drug library in it. And I met with some NICU nurses and there had been a medication error in that NICU.

[00:26:32] And she reached over and she said, Rhonda, I wish we had had your pump so we could have avoided this horrible incident. And I realized then, you know what? This technology makes a difference. We really can make a difference. And so from you doing this work was multiplying

[00:26:54] use across the country and world. Yes. And I that's exactly what I said. I went back and I said, you know, when I was at Baylor or when I was at THR, wherever I could impact this number of nurses.

[00:27:08] But now I have the opportunity to impact nurses all over the world with this technology. And I really embraced that. And I had some great business mentors in that company who really gave me guidance and helped me learn to write a business

[00:27:25] plan from the business perspective, not from a patient nurse perspective. It really made a difference. And I realized that I had a real skill for it. And I also loved being able to combine business and clinical to create these solutions that could make a difference.

[00:27:42] I just love that. So inspiring being the CEO of you. You are seeing yourself as a business. I can't even take how inspirational that is. Really, really. I mean, everybody needs to sit down, make a business plan and start seeing yourself as that.

[00:28:00] I mean, that's at the end of the day, that's huge. Now, I know you've gone through so much. You mentioned the passing of your father and the heartbreaking health event with your husband. And what are things that you do to help overcome challenges in your life?

[00:28:14] You know, challenges come our way, personal, professional and otherwise. What are things that strategies that you have or hold on to that just keep you going? Right. I don't journal. I've tried to journal many, many times because so many people talk about

[00:28:31] how helpful it is, but it's it doesn't work for me. But I my kids called it my magic legal pad. I write things down, you know, that we're going to accomplish this and occupational therapy by this date. We are going to do this by this date.

[00:28:51] I truly believe that what you focus on gets bigger. Negative or positive? What you focus on gets bigger. And so when you look to the solution rather than the problem, the solution gets bigger. It becomes more clear in your mind.

[00:29:07] And as you start to write down details around it, you're able to to clarify exactly, oh, I really shouldn't go in this direction. I should probably go in this direction to ensure that we're getting what we need.

[00:29:20] I just believe that there's no such thing as an error free or conflict free existence. And you are the grownup in the room. Nobody's going to come save you. So you have to be able to focus on how do I solve this problem one step at a time?

[00:29:38] It works for me in my career. It works for me in any huge challenge that I have in my family. And some of the things I will say, you know, like you run up against a particular situation, I'll just say a doctor or a co-worker or somebody

[00:29:54] when you're accessing health care or you're working. And you think, I don't really enjoy working with this or I don't enjoy. And then just write it down, write it down. What makes me uncomfortable now? Which one of these things can I be different with?

[00:30:08] Because I can't expect that situation to be different. How can I make that more usable or learn from this or redirect myself or redirect the situation? So grounding, you know, it makes that big thing seem smaller on paper.

[00:30:26] It totally does. And it goes back to being the CEO of you. Nobody's going to come save you. You have to make the decisions about this business that is you. And I've said many times, you know, raising a family is a business.

[00:30:37] You have a short term plan, a long range plan. You know, you're trying to get those kids raised through college and all those sort of things. You're making budgets. You're living by budgets.

[00:30:46] You know, you have goals of where you want to be and how you want to get there. And so just employ the same. I get to make this decision. I get to make this decision about how I want this business to run. And I'm going to do that.

[00:30:59] And so sometimes just like in business, you have to drop back and take another tact. But I think that eventually you reach the point where it's like I've earned this opinion and I'm going to state this opinion

[00:31:13] because, you know, I've spent the time and I've earned the right to have this opinion. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. This is my favorite part of doing this podcast. Honestly, it's just being able to be mentored by amazing women like you.

[00:31:27] It's so much amazing experience and success. And I'm just so grateful that you were so generous with your advice. I appreciate that so much. Thank you, Grace. I really appreciate it. You know, one thing being in health care informatics when I entered in 2003,

[00:31:42] I mean, there just really wasn't it was pretty thin on the ground to have a nurse in informatics. And if there's anything I can do, you know, whether I've left a legacy in clinical informatics is that it's accessible and that we need the young, bright, enthusiastic.

[00:32:00] And when I'm at events and I see that, I get really excited because I feel like all the work some of us more vintage folks have put in is going to have a lasting legacy to see all of that energy.

[00:32:15] Couldn't agree more. Now, to finish this conversation off right, where can our listeners find you and your great insights online? Yes, I have a very I'm very active on LinkedIn. And you can find my profile on LinkedIn. That is really the social media that I'm working on.

[00:32:32] I'm on threads, RJC underscore DNP. And I'm always open to conversations about that. And I love meeting with nurses and colleagues and young nurses reach out to me frequently on LinkedIn and want to talk about specific issues. And I'm always glad to talk about that.

[00:32:54] I'm very willing to be available. And one of the topics that I've been published on in many arenas is cognitive load or cognitive burden. So I do talk about that quite a bit as well. That is too good.

[00:33:06] Well, before I forget, did you happen to bring tea or coffee with you today? Tell me a little bit about your mug. Well, it's Santa Fe, New Mexico, and we are building our final retirement home in Santa Fe. So. What a great place.

[00:33:24] It's such a beautiful place to retire. Yes, it is. And it's a lot cooler than Texas. I Texas is just so hot. And I always drink spearmint tea because spearmint is very it's very comforting and it's like soothing and stressful situations for me.

[00:33:43] So spearmint tea is my favorite. Well, I can say as somebody who who knows you that you are also very comforting and soothing like your tea choice. So thank you so much for being that way. And thank you for joining us today.

[00:33:57] Thank you, Grace. I really appreciate it. And I want to know what what you're drinking and what your mug. So I have blackberry sage tea mixed with espresso. Oh, and a little bit of steamed milk with lavender. So it's kind of like a London fog slash coffee thing,

[00:34:18] which I absolutely love. And all of my favorite people, I like to send them this blackberry sage tea because it's just so delicious. I'll have to send you some. It's so yummy to me. I love my tea. Tea is one of my favorite things. Yeah, awesome. Love it.

[00:34:33] Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much. You have a great week, Grace. Thank you. Love it. And thanks to you guys for joining us, too. Check out the High Tea with Grace podcast for more interviews with esteemed guests like Rhonda today. Cheers.