Carla Harris and Calling a Thing a Thing || EP. 155

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[00:00:34] to you. To prepare for this discussion, first of all, it's very special to me. I have listened to

[00:00:40] podcasts. I have read books. I have read talks. I wore my pearls. We're going to talk about the

[00:00:47] eight pearls of wisdom for intentional leadership from Carla Harris on having done all those things

[00:00:54] including by the way, listening to gospel music, which is not my thing, but it is now.

[00:01:00] I just have to say that your wisdom in your leadership is exceptional. I really am inspired

[00:01:06] to be speaking with you today. My first question for you, can you remember a time when you were not

[00:01:15] confident? Well, I'll tell you, Lori, I can't remember a time that I wasn't confident in my

[00:01:20] abilities, but I can't remember a time when my confidence got busted. And that was very early

[00:01:26] on in my career. So I've always approached everything with a can do attitude because my parents

[00:01:31] always made me feel like I was supposed to do well, that it was nothing special. I didn't have to make

[00:01:37] a special investment. You're smart. You're supposed to do well. So what are you talking about?

[00:01:42] But when I first started out in my career, I certainly had a few people that I worked with

[00:01:47] that made me question whether or not I was made for this business. And I will tell you by the

[00:01:52] time I was four years in, my confidence was so busted that if you had said your name is Carla

[00:01:59] Harris, I would have said, are you sure? That's just where it was. And I will tell you what my

[00:02:04] breakthrough was. I happened to call my best friend from home who I've been friends with since I

[00:02:09] was 10 years old and I called her house to talk to her that day about yet another tough thing I

[00:02:15] was going through and her mama answered the phone and I said, Hey, Ms. Breaker, how you doing?

[00:02:20] It's Cheryl home. And she said, no baby, Cheryl's not home now. And it was silence. And she said,

[00:02:25] Carla, what's wrong? And I said, I just broke down and I just went and she listened. And she

[00:02:34] said, baby, I got one thing to tell you, Psalm 91 and Psalm four click. So she said, and I was

[00:02:41] like, because you have to understand, I am cradle Catholic from three months old. And you

[00:02:48] know, most Catholics would all do respect. They can't sort of spout scripture, this scripture that

[00:02:53] we know the mass, but we're not going to tell you, you know, Psalm 91 or Romans 828 and

[00:02:59] blah, blah, blah. But that was my first introduction into understanding holding on to the word

[00:03:05] and using the word for power. So I started reading every morning, every night, Psalm 91,

[00:03:10] Psalm four didn't know why other than the reason that Ms. Breaker told me to do it.

[00:03:14] And I'm obedient girl. Well, a few months into it, Carla, a couple of months, not even eight weeks.

[00:03:20] All of a sudden, I got clarity. And I started saying, why am I questioning whether or not I can

[00:03:28] do this? Wait, let me look at my truths. I graduated, you know, from high school, summa

[00:03:35] cum laude, I graduated from Harvard undergrad magna cum laude. I got a summa and a magna on

[00:03:41] my thesis is in Harvard archives next to JFK's and some other folks. I got a very contested job

[00:03:47] at Morgan Stanley, you know, graduated second year on us from Harvard Business School. And

[00:03:52] I'm questioning whether or not I can do numbers. And oh, by the way, my thesis was,

[00:03:56] you know, highly econometric thesis had to do regression analysis and all of that.

[00:04:01] And I'm questioning whether or not I could do numbers. Where is that coming from?

[00:04:05] So I started getting that clarity around my truth and not the distraction of the experience.

[00:04:10] And I'm using those words for reason, ladies, your truth versus the distraction that you tend to

[00:04:17] focus on. And then I remember going to talk to one of the, you know, gentlemen that I was always

[00:04:23] sent to because the person I was working with, every time I asked them a question, they were like,

[00:04:28] you don't know that? What do they teach you at Harvard Business School? You don't know that?

[00:04:35] And so, you know, they would always say, go ask Bill, go ask so and so. So finally,

[00:04:41] I went to ask Bill another question on my own this time, and he was living. He said,

[00:04:46] do you understand why that person keeps sending you here? I am tired of it. It's because they

[00:04:52] don't know. They don't know what they're doing. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you're too smart

[00:04:58] for this. And, you know, after I got over the shock, that was my breakthrough.

[00:05:05] And the reason why that's an important story is so many young professionals go into their career

[00:05:11] thinking like I did naively. I'm here. I'm smart. I can work hard. Teach me. The problem is sometimes

[00:05:19] in those early days of your career, you run into somebody who cannot teach you. And so,

[00:05:23] you have to be prepared to teach yourself, to invest in the learning on your own because

[00:05:29] you might get that person. And the other lesson that I learned was that that person

[00:05:34] was definitely poisoning the system around me. Oh, she's not this. She's not that. Oh my gosh.

[00:05:39] She did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So when people tell me that there's one person that's

[00:05:44] confounding them, I say make that person the outlier because everybody else I work with seem to be

[00:05:50] having a pretty good experience in me. So I said if there's one person that's confounding your

[00:05:55] experience, go out of your way to make sure everybody else that touch tastes and feel you

[00:06:00] think you're the best thing since sliced bread. So when that person gets behind closed doors

[00:06:05] and they start spewing their negativism about you, the other people can say oh really? That was my

[00:06:12] experience. Oh really? No. So now that person will start stepping back because they're the only

[00:06:17] one that's had this experience. And then little or not. And then last thing I'll say about that

[00:06:22] is you know, use a little spirituality. Then just as mine said to Lord, but if you're nice,

[00:06:28] he'll let you see it when he get him. And I saw it.

[00:06:36] Carla, you know for women ascending into leadership, there's still today and you don't like it nor do I,

[00:06:42] but yet there still is so much talk still about the imposter syndrome. You talk all the time about

[00:06:49] three types of important capital that everyone has available to them intellectual capital,

[00:06:54] experience capital and relationship capital. I really want to talk about that intellectual

[00:06:59] capital and the experience capital and what you really think about the imposter syndrome. Yes.

[00:07:04] And so thank you so much for that question. And we talked about it a little bit in our prep call

[00:07:07] that, you know, I get that question almost every time I speak and it used to drive me nuts.

[00:07:12] But now I just I, you know, I endure it and I understand it because the imposter syndrome was

[00:07:17] the hot thing when I was coming out of Harvard Business School. That was 37 years ago this

[00:07:22] coming summer. How can it be that we're still talking about it? So my conclusion is that my

[00:07:27] generation did not properly pass on the truths that nobody should ever have the imposter syndrome

[00:07:35] because none of us get the job because we are a pretty face and nobody gets the job because

[00:07:39] they need women and people of color. They just don't make decisions like that. They gave you

[00:07:43] the shot because they see that you can make rain. So you should have one objective when

[00:07:50] you walk into your organization every day and that is go make rain. They see it. Nobody gets the job

[00:07:56] with one interview. So you can't say that they were wrong. They just didn't see it.

[00:08:03] 13 people because it takes easily 13 people to get the kind of jobs that we all have in this room

[00:08:09] easily interviews from the first one to your offer. 13 people made a mistake. Well, people,

[00:08:15] eight people made a mistake. That's impossible. Right? So you have what it takes to excel. So going

[00:08:21] back to where we started this conversation, focus on your truth. Not the distraction of how hard

[00:08:27] this feels. Not the fact that you gave away your power and let somebody make you question like I did

[00:08:33] whether or not you could do the job. Right? Focus on your truth. You have what it takes.

[00:08:38] Now the question becomes do you want to do it? Right? Because let's face it. So many

[00:08:43] people come out of graduate school and undergrad because I got to get a job or the consulting job

[00:08:48] everybody wants. I need to go for a tool or investment banking job. I need to go and you

[00:08:52] never stop to really ask yourself what it is you really want to do. And I will admit that's a

[00:08:56] hard question. Yeah, especially if your parents have sleep you to go to college or graduate school

[00:09:00] you can't say I don't know. Right? You don't want to say I don't know. So most people say

[00:09:05] I'm going to law school. No, I'm just kidding. Well, but let's face it. If you tell people

[00:09:09] you're going to law school they get off your back. You know, your parents are like

[00:09:13] law school and you sort of say well I can make a living for myself and right. But you don't stop

[00:09:18] to say what it so the question is always do you want to do it? Right? Not whether or not

[00:09:23] you can do it. So you should not ever ever have the imposter syndrome. And let's talk about

[00:09:28] the intellectual capital. If you got to the seat where you can even interview for the job

[00:09:34] you've already gotten the prerequisites of what you need. Let's talk about experiential capital.

[00:09:39] When you're doing something from a lateral perspective, you know, the only reason they're

[00:09:43] talking to you is that they perceive that between your intellectual capital and what

[00:09:47] you've already done that you have what it takes in order to prosecute that particular job.

[00:09:53] But you also said though that one thing that really stuck with me is that

[00:09:56] and then there's all those other people that didn't get the job. That's right. You

[00:10:00] got the job. That's right. And that to me just crystallizes the ability to remember whatever

[00:10:05] the doubt is that you might have all those other people who wanted that chair,

[00:10:09] the privilege of leadership that you sit in and the opportunity to actually use it. I think that

[00:10:15] is just one of the you're so excellent ways to categorize that. You are so right, Laurie,

[00:10:19] that and that is a truth to remind yourself of. So if that imposter syndrome is creeping up,

[00:10:26] go back to your truths. I've got the job over all these other candidates, right? I've already

[00:10:32] gotten some things and under my two, you know, in my tool chest that made me even a good candidate

[00:10:38] for the role, right? So there's so many things I've done things for the first time. So a lot of

[00:10:42] people think, Oh, it's the imposter syndrome because they haven't done that thing. Yeah, but

[00:10:46] don't discount all of your other experience and how it has prepared you for this. I made

[00:10:52] that mistake a few times over the course of my career. When I was doing something completely new,

[00:10:58] I gave other people who had had experience in that place more credit than than I had even with

[00:11:05] motherhood as Laurie knows, you know, I came to motherhood much later than most people.

[00:11:10] I have an eight year old and a three year old no comments, please. Right? And I remember with

[00:11:15] my first one, you know, I was like, I really want to be a great mother. You know, I haven't

[00:11:20] done this before. I'm a new mother, even though I'm a seasoned mother. And so I was taking everybody's

[00:11:25] advice and feeling like I wasn't quite doing it. Well, somewhere around eight or nine months,

[00:11:33] I was like, what are you doing? Why are you taking all these other people's advice? Everyone,

[00:11:38] great mothers will tell you, you figure it out as you go. Right? There's some basic things

[00:11:43] like changing the diaper, right? That you probably want to know how to do. But you are a very experienced

[00:11:50] professional. You've learned a lot of things for the first time. That is your truth. You are a quick

[00:11:57] learner. That is your truth. You know how to figure out things. And oh, by the way, you have a track

[00:12:03] record. Your Carla Harris are doing things the way you want to do them. You didn't get to

[00:12:06] the top of Wall Street in the normal way. You did it your way. So it was a different

[00:12:11] experience when you got that title of managing director. So mama, be a mama, be in tune with

[00:12:18] your child. That's the one thing about young children. They'll tell you what they need.

[00:12:22] You know, they're wet, they're going to cry. They're hungry, they're going to cry. They want

[00:12:25] to cuddle, they're going to cry. So you don't necessarily know which reason they're crying,

[00:12:29] but you know basically how to respond. Trust yourself. And from that day to this one,

[00:12:35] it's been about my experience with that kid and not various incendiary, but I discounted,

[00:12:42] gave away my power simply because I hadn't done it before. That is a form of imposter syndrome

[00:12:48] as well. Don't do it. I went through eight or nine tough months, not trying to figure it out.

[00:12:54] And by the time she was seven months, I was starting to figure out I wanted to do over.

[00:12:59] I was like, I want to do it. So I got a second one.

[00:13:02] Well, Carla, I want to go to the third type of capital that you also talk about. And this is where

[00:13:10] I think there's just true power and power, whether you're giving it away or understanding how to use

[00:13:15] it. That's relationship capital. And we know in sort of the environments of professional women

[00:13:21] that relationship capital is extremely valuable. So I would wonder if you could just talk about

[00:13:25] it and also talk about how to deploy it and why that's so important. Absolutely. So

[00:13:29] let's two pieces to that. The relationship currency is extremely important as you get more

[00:13:33] senior. This is the room of seasoned women. And I have to tell you that it's not about your

[00:13:37] performance currency, which is what you are delivering every day. That's what I talk about

[00:13:40] strategize to win the difference between performance currency and relationship currency.

[00:13:44] But the relationship currency is so important because as you get more senior people are

[00:13:49] making decisions behind closed doors that have nothing to do with your deliverable.

[00:13:53] You the fact that you're even a subject that sort says you're good in terms of what

[00:13:57] you deliver. Now it's going to be about who knows you in that room to say, Oh,

[00:14:01] Lori, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, we got to give this to her. There's no debate.

[00:14:04] You know, yeah, that will let, you know, she's our most creative person and she can't figure it

[00:14:08] out. It can't be done. There are never any numbers with those conversations. They're all

[00:14:13] subjective, which are a function of the relationships that people have with you.

[00:14:17] And where I see senior women making mistakes is that they continue to invest in the

[00:14:21] performance currency. Well over time, performance currency has diminished in

[00:14:25] marginal returns. You can't get any more value with that. You cannot invest more with that and

[00:14:30] get more credit is going to be about the way you can convince Jim or the report you have with Tom,

[00:14:36] right? And I'm using male names because that's usually who's in the room, right?

[00:14:40] And if it's a woman, the same thing, you got to build that relationship with her.

[00:14:44] And sometimes it gets even more difficult. We're going to call a thing or thing

[00:14:47] to build those supportive relationship with senior women, right? But you got to be

[00:14:51] that girl because if you don't have that relationship capital, you will either get passed

[00:14:58] over or you will not realize your true value if you get to see, right? Because you don't

[00:15:03] have the relationships to ask the question in the room. So the relationships are critical,

[00:15:08] especially as you're more senior. They're critical as you're going up the ladder. But

[00:15:13] it's I'm going to tell you that it's 80 and 90% relationships when you get to senior,

[00:15:18] not and 10 or 20% on the performance. Now let's talk about using your currency.

[00:15:24] I can't tell you how many times as a young pup in this business that I saw senior women

[00:15:30] not realize their full value and their full power. Because as you said,

[00:15:34] we were talking out there, the relationship pieces about power.

[00:15:37] You can't get in that room ladies and not use your voice.

[00:15:41] You can't get in that room and say, Oh, I just got in the room. I don't say anything

[00:15:45] because you know, I just got in the room. I want them to put me out or I don't want them

[00:15:49] to look at me funny or I don't want them to say blah, blah, right? If you don't use your voice

[00:15:55] is goes back to what your mother said, what you don't use, you lose. And I have seen women

[00:16:01] who got to the top basically dethroned because they didn't they were not perceived

[00:16:09] by the powers to be at powers that be to really bring value because they set those

[00:16:14] rooms and ain't say anything, right? And you can't be in the room and know that you need to

[00:16:20] support another woman and say to yourself, well, I don't want to speak up for Janine because I

[00:16:25] don't want them to say that I'm supporting her just because she's a woman or I don't want them

[00:16:32] to say I'm supporting as a Jamie. I don't want them to say I'm supporting Jamie because

[00:16:36] she's a woman of color. No woman in this room would support anybody, a male or a female that you

[00:16:45] didn't think was ready or worthy of your support. You would never do it. So don't convince yourself

[00:16:53] that others may think that perhaps you see these words think perhaps you don't know what anybody

[00:17:02] is thinking, what anybody else is thinking unless you are clairvoyant. Right? And so don't create this

[00:17:07] narrative in your mind as to why you can't lend your support to another woman or a person of color.

[00:17:14] Suppose I tell you you were bought in that room because you're a woman, right? We all like to

[00:17:19] think, oh, I want to be thought of as, you know, a really great professional. I don't want to

[00:17:25] be thought of as the woman professional or the woman director, or I don't want to be thought of as

[00:17:32] the director of color or the professional, you know, that's of color. I ask you, what do you

[00:17:39] think they see when they look at you? So why would you run away from that? Yeah, if you brought

[00:17:46] me into that room because you think I have a certain perspective, that's called leverage.

[00:17:53] That's called leverage. So I'm going to use it, right? I'm going to use it till I can buy myself

[00:17:57] some leverage on some other things. Sometimes you also have to buy yourself time. I mean,

[00:18:02] when you're in those new positions and the further up you go, there's also less experience

[00:18:06] you might have and people to look to. And so one of the other things that is just so valuable

[00:18:11] when you become more senior is to leverage that relationship capital because you want to

[00:18:16] be confident. You want to be confident in what you're saying in the boardroom or whatever.

[00:18:19] So reaching out to your network and using that relationship capital from somebody that you trust

[00:18:24] or even don't know who's been in that position before you to help you is so valuable.

[00:18:29] Absolutely. Every CEO I know reaches out to other CEOs when they get the CEO job, right?

[00:18:35] Even if they're not in their industry to understand how they manage prices, do you

[00:18:40] have a crisis consultant, not just your communications consultant? How did you all think about

[00:18:46] how did you all think about this? How did you do that? Every CEO I know reaches out to other CEOs,

[00:18:53] right? And when they know they're on the path to becoming the CEO, some really good board directors

[00:18:57] start introducing them to other CEOs before it happens so they can have a ready made network.

[00:19:02] So you're right. The relationship capital is important when you're in the room to exercise

[00:19:07] your power. It's important when you go in the room to get allies. So Jim, I'm going to be

[00:19:12] talking about Priya and I'm going to bring Priya's name up. I need your backing. You got me?

[00:19:16] Because remember, I helped you with Sam. I need you to help me with Priya. That's relationships,

[00:19:19] right? And also to get the advice and the knowledge that you need in order to prosecute

[00:19:25] the job. So never, ever, ever any reason for the imposter syndrome, ever. And wait,

[00:19:31] one last thing I'm going to say about this. We could talk forever, we could talk forever,

[00:19:37] Lori, but let me just say one of the most important things that you can do as a senior woman

[00:19:44] is to affirm other women. When somebody comes into your office and they're melting down or

[00:19:51] they're crying or they have an issue or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. One of the things I

[00:19:55] learned to do when somebody came to me to say that I'd let them cry. I said, you know, girl,

[00:19:59] here's some, here's some tissue. And when they finish, I said, now let me tell you,

[00:20:03] good knows, you're right. Exactly what you think is going on is going on. Good knows. And the reason

[00:20:10] why I said it's so important to affirm other women is because so often we suffer in silence.

[00:20:16] And when you finally combust and you got to say something to somebody, you still feel like you're

[00:20:20] the only one that that's happening to, right? So the most important thing you can do is say, no,

[00:20:25] girl, you're not the only one. I've seen this before. Nice job. You diagnosed it

[00:20:29] because so often you are alone in those seats and you've got to be able to trust your own voice.

[00:20:35] You ought to, you got to be able to trust your ability to diagnose an issue. So when somebody

[00:20:39] that you believe in and respect says, you got it right, now you're feeling like, okay, all right,

[00:20:46] so I can see this thing, right? And then now you give them a solution. So in the same thing with

[00:20:51] your daughters, affirm them, because there's so many things that are going on in our world now

[00:20:56] that tear women down and make them question themselves, affirm their risk taking, affirm

[00:21:02] their mistakes and affirm when they get it right. Okay, I'll hush.

[00:21:07] No, you won't. So as we close out on this inspiring women conversation, Karla, I wanted

[00:21:12] to ask you one last question. You have said that there is no question that you do not have

[00:21:16] a prescriptive answer for. And so here goes. So inspiring women is all about inspiring women

[00:21:22] as they ascend to leadership, but then once they are to keep them there. And we know during

[00:21:26] the pandemic that we've seen the alarming trend of just another generation move forward in terms of

[00:21:32] when we get to gender equity, but we're seeing a trend of senior level executive women stepping

[00:21:37] down, downshifting or out of the workforce and all together. One of your pearls is about

[00:21:44] using your voice. And I wonder if you could just close us out with that level of inspiration

[00:21:51] to keep women in the game. Now is our time. What do you have to say about that? Okay, so here's the

[00:21:59] thing. Every woman that is sitting in a position of power and leadership now has the opportunity

[00:22:04] to impact, infect and prepare the next generation. Don't blow it. Don't be so focused again on

[00:22:11] the performance that you're not investing in the relationship currency, not just on your own

[00:22:15] behalf, but on behalf of the next generation of women. You may have earned your right at this

[00:22:21] point 30 years in it 35 years in it 40 years in it to sit down. So I'm not going to tell you hang

[00:22:26] in there if you're tired girl because fatigue and fear are two things that hold women back

[00:22:32] at the senior in the senior ranks is fatigue. They've been tired of fighting for 20 years

[00:22:37] and they're ready to stop. And in the early stages it's fear. But those of you who

[00:22:42] are tired who just may not want to go that next wrong, then make sure that there's some women that

[00:22:47] are prepared. I remember Lori, I looked a few years ago. It was sort of it was there were seven

[00:22:53] black CEOs of major corporations and I thought to myself, are we going to go back when they leave

[00:23:00] the scene? Right? Yeah. And only a couple were in a position frankly to make sure that somebody

[00:23:06] else that looked like them could have sent to the seat. So I say to all the women CEOs that are in

[00:23:12] the room and I say to all the women directors that are in the room, if you're a CEO, have you

[00:23:17] prepared the bench? Are you giving your board a real choice when it's time to succeed you?

[00:23:25] And are you investing in the right talent across the board and investing enough? So make sure

[00:23:30] that you can do that. If you're a board director, you can't sit in that seat when they say

[00:23:35] we're looking for some other directors are not putting the names in the hat. Right? They may not

[00:23:39] take your names, but don't be without a few names that you could put in the hat and make sure that

[00:23:46] you're prepared, especially with some women and endorse the people of color because we're in 2024

[00:23:51] and people still say they can't find any. Yeah. Right? And you can't be a woman that's sitting

[00:23:56] in a seat right now. You don't know some other women that aren't prepared or that aren't ready.

[00:24:01] So at least half stop. There's one lady and I won't say her name, but she is so intentional as

[00:24:07] she's now approaching the age of, you know, aging off of boards. She's been very intentional

[00:24:13] about replacing herself on all the boards that she's been on. And in most cases,

[00:24:18] she's replaced herself with herself with somebody who looks like her. Right? Because there's a lot

[00:24:27] of qualified women out there. You can't let this, we can't find any continue. And if they don't choose

[00:24:34] them, that's okay for now, but you still got some time on that board and say, okay, last two folks

[00:24:41] we brought on with men now what are we doing? Where we're going? Now you got leverage to ask the

[00:24:47] question. Carla, you are true to your word. That is unbelievable closing advice. This has

[00:24:54] been such an amazing time with Carla Harris on this inspiring women conversation. Carla,

[00:24:59] thank you so much. Thank you, Lori. This has been an episode of Inspiring Women with Lori McGrath.

[00:25:06] Please subscribe, rate and review. We are produced by Kate Cruz at Executive Podcast Solutions.

[00:25:13] More episodes can be found on inspiringwomen.show. I am Lori McGrath and thank you for listening.