Drop the ‘empowerment’, get rid of bureaucracy instead: Jessica Neal, former Netflix talent officer, on getting back to work || EP. 193

[00:00:00] All these companies that use this word empowerment actually don't like that word because it's like why do we have to empower? You're taking all the power away! Stop taking the power away, just let them do their work, get out of the way.

[00:00:13] One of the things that I just see many companies do as they scale and they grow is they try to control all of that growth chaos with process, with rules.

[00:00:31] Right? And you know what happens is, is these are all well intended good things, but what happens is all of this stuff just slows everybody down. This is Inspiring Women and I'm Laurie McGraw and today I am speaking with Jessica Neal on Inspiring Women.

[00:00:55] Jessica, I had the opportunity to be on your TruthWorks podcast. That was a whole lot of fun. Just for all of the Inspiring Women listeners, Jessica Neal is a global industry leader. She knows and thinks a lot about the state of work and how to change the state of work. She thinks about employees, she thinks about what's changing, she has a lot of opinions about things that work and she knows a lot of things that don't.

[00:01:22] She was the CHRO, Chief Health Resource Human Resources Officer at Netflix during that enormous growth to the powerhouse that Netflix is today. She was a leadership advisor in terms of that strategy. She is a venture partner and many other things. And Jessica, thank you for being on Inspiring Women. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. And thank you for coming on my podcast. Now I'm on your podcast. It's like, I'll do your podcast.

[00:01:51] This is like how the podcast stuff works. Right. Exactly. Jessica, you are a global industry leader. You're a thought leader in terms of the way of work and how to create cultures that drive strategy, that drive business growth. You bring that to your work in venture. You bring that work into investing to what you advise on out there. But before we go into all of that, why don't we just start with a bit of the bio sketch of your background? How did you get there?

[00:02:20] How did you even get interested in this sort of like human capital part of the work environment? Oh, gosh. Do I go all the way back? I mean, look, I was a girl who grew up in a small town in Kentucky. And I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a painter. So I was very good at painting.

[00:02:45] I convinced my father to let me go to art school in New York for college. He was really not so excited about it. He wanted me to say that. Yeah. Right. Do I have to pay for it? And he was like, just stay in Kentucky and like go to business school because like, what are you going to do with like an art degree? He was kind of right.

[00:03:07] But any who, I go to college in New York and I get my degree in fine art and painting and then move out to San Francisco. And wanted to prove to my father that I could make a business doing art. So I called every art gallery in San Francisco when I moved there and begged them to hire me. And one of them did.

[00:03:33] And long story short, the manager of the gallery got fired. And so I had to sell, I got promoted. I don't know how I got promoted. I guess because I was like the only one there. I went from like changing the light. Promotion, last person standing. Yeah. I went from changing the lights because lights are very important in our gallery and hanging the artwork to managing the gallery and selling the artwork. And this artwork was like, was it?

[00:04:02] It was like more rare maps, antique prints. So it wasn't like, you know, abstract art, like the typical art gallery you might think of. And anyways, we had five galleries across the US and I ended up becoming the top salesperson. And I was the youngest probably like 20 years because these other people had studied this type of art. Kind of like the antiques roadshow if you've ever seen that. Yeah.

[00:04:25] And the guy who owned the gallery was not the best. And the director of the art gallery was leaving. And I was like, well, I can't stay here with this crazy person, right? Who owns the gallery by myself. I have to leave. And so I started looking for jobs because I guess I was good at sales because I was like the top salesperson.

[00:04:51] I started to look for entry level sales jobs and I fell into recruiting. Mm hmm. And so that's it was a recruiting job. That is a sales job. Yeah. And they ended up hiring me. I ended up being uniquely good at it. I don't. I'm sure there's some reason in my, you know, brain. You know the reasons. I know you know the reasons. You know about talent. You understand how success and jobs. Yeah. We're expert in this, Jessica. I feel like, I don't know.

[00:05:21] I feel like God gave me like a unique ability to be a bit of a human lie detector. Right? So I just knew, I just knew the difference between good and great. And I think a lot of folks don't. Yep. And I could kind of snip out the not so great pretty easily. Um, so that's kind of how I got into HR. I did head hunting for, I don't know, six or seven years.

[00:05:51] And then, um, Netflix was my client and they asked me to come in and run recruiting. And I said, no, a bunch of times, but, um, cause I was like, I'm a business person. Like I'm not, I'm not an internal recruiter. That's not what I do. And, um, the challenge at the time was that they could not hire the technical talent to make the transition from DVD by mail to streaming. Yep.

[00:06:19] And so if for those listeners on, on the, on the horn that remember. The way back machine. Yeah. That remember the DVDs. Um, they, they were a thing and, and we shipped them, but, um, yeah, they, they just, they were this amazing company and they were by far my favorite client because they, they just got it. They got, they got the talent was the most important thing that they could do. They didn't worry about the small stuff. They didn't lose people of a process.

[00:06:48] They didn't lose people over a couple thousand dollars. They were like, we want the best. We'll do whatever it takes to get the best. And I knew what the best was and I knew how to do it. And so I, I came in and took the leap and, and help them make that transition. And I spent a, I joined in 2006 when we were 250 salaried employees.

[00:07:11] I left when we were over 10,000 and, you know, countries all around the world. Yeah. And we went from being DVD by mail to streaming to global, and then to being the largest entertainment company in the world. And so now, you know, so now we're producing content, not just in the U.S., but in, in the Middle East, we're producing content in Amsterdam or, you know, wherever.

[00:07:40] Um, let's, let's just like pause for a second because I think it's important to, um, we all know Netflix and we all know Netflix today because we all have Netflix. It is a primary source of where we get information, news, you know, entertainment, all of the things. But in 2006, in 2006, when it was DVDs, when it was, you got things in the mailbox, you returned things, you had, you know, self-addressed stamped envelopes. Yeah.

[00:08:10] Netflix was one of a number of entertainment organizations in that space, and it was very unclear that Netflix would survive. Yes. It was very unclear, you know, you know, it was, um, Blockbuster Video was the teaming like, you know, large organization that seemed like they had the juggernaut on this, this part of, um, entertainment. Then Netflix went all in on streaming.

[00:08:40] Then Netflix went in and made a number of additional enormous strategic moves. And Netflix is not just a global, um, entertainment, um, industry. It is the largest by a lot, by a lot. It, there's sort of like, there's Netflix and then there's like, you know, 85 rungs on the ladder. And then there's the next companies like Disney and others in these, um, services. Yeah.

[00:09:08] So with talent being the primary thing that Netflix was focused on at that time, can you talk about, you know, how that is either similar or different than other companies, you know, that are, you know, on a growth trajectory or trying to like hash it out in a very competitive environment?

[00:09:30] Yeah, no, I think, um, I think what, what helped us a lot is that Reed, who is the CEO and, and he's now the president. Who's a friend of yours. He is. So I worked with him for a lot of my life. Um, so yes, he's a friend. Um, but he was the founder CEO and now he's the president. And, um, he had had two other companies before Netflix and they were successful.

[00:09:59] And we probably never had to work another day in his life. Sold them for a lot of money. But then when he started Netflix, he was like, okay, I'm going to focus on the things that I didn't focus on. And I'm going to build a great company. I'm not just going to build a good company. I'm going to build like a great company and a great company that I want to work at. Right. And, um, and so he, he thought about these first principle things that kind of helped set up the way that we worked. Right. Which, which was our culture. Yep.

[00:10:29] And, um, and so one was he wanted the best. Right. And he was like, I, I would rather hire one great person than three average people. And I'd rather pay that one great person, the salary of all three average people. Because I know if I hired the one great person, I'm going to get 10 X on that, you know, investment. Right.

[00:10:57] That ROI is going to be through the roof. If I hired the three average people, I'm going to get no ROI. Yeah. Right. It's going to be flat. Right. Because average only does average. Right. And so that was sort of a first principle thing. And then it sort of led to, okay, well, if I want the best, I have to pay the best. Yeah. Even, even though they were a startup, they didn't have a lot of money, but it was a choice, you know, at the time that he made. And so if I'm going to hire the best, I'm going to pay the best.

[00:11:26] Then I have to find out a way of working that allows them to do their best work. Yeah. And so that's sort of where, um, freedom and responsibility kind of came about, which was the foundation of our, our culture. And freedom and responsibility was like, okay, if I'm going to pay you top of market, and I assume you're top of market, you have all this freedom. Yeah.

[00:11:52] You make decisions and do great work, but you also have all of this responsibility at the same time. Yep. So they go hand in hand. And what was beautiful about the environment was that when people came in, they were surrounded by these people who were so incredible, so smart, so great at their craft that they learned and that they were challenged.

[00:12:16] And then they worked in an environment where the environment trusted them. Yeah. And allowed them to do their best work. And what I, you know, all these companies that use this word empowerment actually don't, don't like that word because it's like, why do we have to empower? Yeah. You're taking all the power away. Yeah. Stop taking the power away. Just let them do their work, get out of the way. Right?

[00:12:41] And, you know, um, one of the things that I just see many companies do as they scale and they grow is they try to control all of that growth chaos with process with, you know, uh, rules. Right. And, you know, what happens is, is these are all well-intended good things, but what happens is all of this stuff just slows everybody down.

[00:13:11] Yep. It's just bureaucracy. I mean, I was talking to a company, I'm not going to name the company's name because I'll, you know, they're, but it's a big, well-known company. Just the other day, it took 60 emails to approve one thing. Mm-hmm. 60. Yep. Yep. Yep. I, I'm like, are you, that's just. And there's, it's easy to do. So like, it sounds insane, but it's so easy to fall into those things. Yeah.

[00:13:40] And I was just in, you know, a meeting with our CEO at the company that I'm at and I'm like, I'm working on this, I'm working on this. And his comment, which I really appreciate it was like, like Lori, what I hear, what I hear you saying is a lot of meetings, a lot of meetings. What, what we need is we need the work done. We need the results achieved. Right. Like, like, let's talk about that.

[00:14:05] That's far more interesting than the, you know, the putting the do in place. Yeah. So speaking of meetings, there's this guy that will be on the TruthWorks podcast, I think in the next week or two, it'll be out, but he's brilliant at how to like reform meetings and how to cut them all down. Like, like just cancel them. Just cancel them. Yeah. Yeah. And he, and he's like, meetings are great.

[00:14:35] Meetings aren't great. And what happens, and this is the same meetings is the same thing with like little processes that we put in place. It's like you have this reoccurring meeting and it's just on the calendar. So it stays on the calendar for years. Yep. And nobody ever says whether it's a good meeting or a bad meeting, you know, people just keep going. And then the other thing that he said to me that I, I was like, no, well, duh.

[00:15:01] Like, he's like, if the meeting on your calendar says it's for an hour, guess how long it takes? An hour. Yeah. It's never shorter than an hour. Right. Like people don't like leave a half hour in. I would say very rarely they do, but he's like, so meetings last however long you put them on for. Yep. Right. So if you want it to be less than an hour, stop, you know, don't put it on for an hour. Yeah. You know? But so anyways, look out for that.

[00:15:29] So there's so many things like what we're still talking about having more effective meetings and like better communication. Let's talk about the creation of Netflix. And like, this is where, um, Jessica, there's, you had tone at the top. You had me, you had sort of like the strategy that was like, this is the principles by which we're going to build this company. There are a lot of leaders who said, we want to hire the best and pay the best.

[00:15:55] There are a lot that, that, that is a tried and true formula to state and easy to gravitate to. You can understand how it works. There is the, you know, there is an ocean in between the statement and the making it happen. So the making it happen, the creation of the culture, there are many hard charging, um,

[00:16:19] earlier stage companies that are trying to do what you were told to do that you actually made happen. So how did you make it happen? How did you not, you know, take what is to statement? How did you actually make it happen? What did you do to make it work? Well, I'll say less about what I did for a second, but, um, because I think it's a we because I wouldn't have been able to make it work on my own. Okay.

[00:16:47] So culture, if you, and, and I, I sometimes don't like the word culture because it's just overused, right? It's really, you know, if you want to have operational excellence, right? Mm-hmm. Which is culture. Yeah. Culture is how, it's how you work. It's how you make decisions. It's how you communicate. It's how you get aligned. Right. Um, we just worked incredibly hard at it, incredibly hard at it.

[00:17:15] So we talked equally about how we worked as we did about business equally and sometimes more, right? Like, because, um, and we were constantly evaluating it, constantly looking at it. Um, and the, and we debated it and was like, how do we get it better? How do we not have consensus? How do you know? So the puzzle was ever changing because, you know, as you know, Lori, like at 200, how

[00:17:44] you're going to work at 500, how you're going to work in a thousand, how you're going to, you know, it's all very different. And so the goalposts was changing. And then we're going to be changing and well, what worked a year ago didn't work now. And how we communicated that then didn't work now. There were things that some of them stood the test of time. Right. And then there were things that we just had to rethink. But I think one of the things that I, I think was unique about Netflix that I don't see at every other organization.

[00:18:12] Um, and I think you're right. Going back to what you said, like there's, there's CEOs, founders, leaders philosophically. Yes. We want the best talent. Who's not going to say that they will? Everybody. We want the, we want, we want transparency. We want, we want feedback. But what happens is, is nobody does it. Yep. Right. Right.

[00:18:34] So you have a bunch of wonderful, well-intended people who philosophically align on values and things like that. But the behavior actually never codifies in the organization because no one, especially at the top is doing it. Yeah. Right. So I'll give you like, and, and one of the secret sauces at Netflix was honestly read. Right. Mm-hmm . Because we would, we would debate, we would discuss, and we would say, okay, I'm just giving you an example.

[00:19:04] We, we want to get better at feedback. Yeah. Okay. So we think to get better at feedback, we have to practice it more. And in order to practice it more, we're going to, we're going to give it to each other in every meeting. Okay. Let's do that. He literally would be the first one to leave the room and go do it. Yep. So he would go into his meeting and he'd be like, Hey Lori, great meeting. Do you have feedback for me? Yeah. Okay. Let me give feedback to you. And he, and he's a very unique individual.

[00:19:33] He's an engineer and he's, he can input output real easy. He can, you know, and not everybody's like that, but because he did it, guess what? His leaders did it. Yeah. Their leaders did it. Yeah. And that's easier for you too. So like influence, ensure, follow up on, check all of those things that you need to do when you're changing something. Yeah.

[00:19:58] And my job, my job was to, you know, I think a lot of CHROs get, well, I don't, I don't want to say I'm mean, but they get confused on what the job is. And, you know, I think a lot of CHROs think about their job as more control. Like, let me control what's happening. Let me put in the right processes. Let me put in the right, you know, things for risk and compliance. Yeah.

[00:20:27] And look, you have to be compliant and, and you don't, you know, you, you have to make sure everything's buttoned up and people get paid on time and benefits and all these things. But I thought about my role, not as being the, um, chief human resources officer. Cause I didn't even really like that term. I thought about it as being the chief effectiveness officer. Like my job was to point out to the business where we weren't aligned, where we weren't moving

[00:20:54] fast, where we didn't have the best talent, where, um, teams had tension and conflict and how we were going to sort through that. Because if stuff was slowing us down, we weren't going to meet our goals. We weren't going to achieve what we needed to achieve as a business. And so that's where I spent all my time. Yeah. Well, I, you know, that's actually one thing I wanted to talk to you about is like, sort

[00:21:17] of like the state of sort of the role of the chief, chief, um, chief, a human resources officer. It's my view. And again, I'm in, I'm in a company where like, that is a primary customer of, you know, what my company, um, you know, offers in the spaces of benefits. And what I see it's, it reminds me of the time when I worked in electronic health records

[00:21:44] and back in the day with the people who were the chief information officer, they were people who were like in basements in windowless offices with lots of cables around them. It was a different type of job. Yeah. What I see in companies is that the CHROs or the chief people officers were moving from a time in companies where that responsibility, which was largely hiring talent management from

[00:22:13] a, do we have the right people in the right seats, how we calibrate, you know, how we do promotions and culture. You know, do we have city groups, inclusivity, like, which is important stuff. Right. But what I am seeing and tell me what you think about this. What I am seeing is the level of complex management, the people who are really sitting at the strategy table, you know, so you had that for Netflix where, where talent was like poor to the strategy, like really core to the strategy. Yeah.

[00:22:42] That is not always the case, but today that is more the case. Um, the other thing that I'm saying is that the risk, the risk for most employers is higher than ever brand risk, you know, a brand risk, uh, you know, employees, uh, suing or, you know, like walking out, like all of those kinds of things, uh, five generations in, in a workforce at any particular workplace workplace issues of coming back with her.

[00:23:10] So what I'm seeing for that role, that CHR role, CHRO role, that is now more at the leadership table, boardroom, um, than ever before a dramatic shift. And so I'm stating all that. That's my observation over the past year. You know, you tell me. Yeah, no, I mean, it absolutely is. And I think the, um, the thing that's happened over time with this function is that, um, it's

[00:23:40] just gotten more and more complex. Right. Um, and you know, now you, you not only are sort of this HR person who, you know, sort of puts in the programs to hire the best talent and things like that. You're also the chief diversity officer. You're also the chief medical officer. You're now also the COO in many kind of ways. Yeah.

[00:24:05] And, um, and so I think in some ways, some companies and some of the functions have caught up to that, but some haven't. Yeah. And so that's just been sort of, it's an, and it's a hard shift, um, for a lot because, you know, you're sort of being, you're asking these functions that have been traditionally more administrative than strategic to now be the strategic partner who's going to navigate

[00:24:31] how we're going to solve remote work and hybrid work. Or AI risk. And AI. AI risk is rolling up into the CHROs, like at most companies now. Yes. So, wow. That's incredible. Which is incredible. And, and you know, I, so there are some amazing talented, um, CHROs out there that are doing amazing things. Like I think about Donna Morris at, at Walmart. She's incredible.

[00:24:57] And there's many more, but, but there is a lag sort of in the system. Right. Um, for, for folks being able to keep up with, with all the things that have just landed in this world over the last few years. And it's not a lot of people are prepared and then some people can't flex to that. Right. Um, which is okay too. So, and then some companies like they, you know, I think what the other thing about this

[00:25:22] job that could be a bit challenging is, um, some companies say they want all these things, but they don't really. Yeah. And so you have these well-meaning groups trying to like, you know, make a difference, but they're like, eh. Well, they don't have the resources. Right. You know, they do require resources, investment, um, and everything else. And that's another, you know, sort of, I would say hat of the, um, people leaders, which is

[00:25:51] like the finance financial acumen that is required to understand how all of this adds up to the financial outcomes for a company. Exactly. That is a lot. That is a level of, um, just skillset that wasn't, I would just say there as primary 15, 20 years ago, 15 years ago. Yeah. And I was just talking, um, about this the other day with a good friend of mine, Anish Batlaw. He works at general Atlantic.

[00:26:19] He's, um, amazing, but anyways, you know, he, he advises, um, general Atlantic is a big, you know, investment firm, PE firm, and they invest in. I'm aware. Thank you, Jessica. I was telling you for the listeners, for the listeners who don't know. But, um, but he, um, anyways, he has all this data on what makes companies successful and what doesn't just because of all the pattern recognition that he's had over time of their investments.

[00:26:45] And, you know, I often get asked and he often gets asked what should be the metric for HR. And if you ask a lot of HR leaders, they're going to tell you retention. And that's just wrong. It's not retention. If you're retaining all the right people. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. But, but if you're retaining all the wrong people, it's the absolute wrong metric. And, and that does nothing for the bottom line.

[00:27:13] If you have talent density, right? Especially in the, the roles that matter most. And this doesn't have to do with just a title. It's the, the, the roles that create the most value creation for the company. If you have talent density in those roles, it directly impacts the bottom line. And you can tie your work to that.

[00:27:40] But again, there's just like sort of this old school playbook still going around. It's like, and there was this sort of evolution in the function of like, let's make everybody happy, which I'm like, can we, no, we're never going to make it. We're never going to make anybody happy and especially not everybody. And so there's always going to be somebody upset. The job is again, effectiveness and making the business successful. And the biggest thing you can do to make it a business successful is to guarantee that

[00:28:09] you have the best talent and the most crucial roles. Yep. Okay. So Jessica, you are, you are in venture, you're an advisor, you're a partner. So you're, so business is a core competency of how you think and how you show up. And so that you also know is not necessarily like the, um, the highest honed skill in the world of, um, chief people, people, officers, leaders, et cetera.

[00:28:38] So as you go out and advise, and you are very interested in changing, like how work is done today for better, um, effectiveness for businesses. What are the top things that you're talking to people about? Give me like two or three that you're just like, you might be thinking about this. So you just gave us one, you know, in terms of talent density, give us a couple more of those like big, you know, the biggest one. No clarity. Okay.

[00:29:06] People don't know what's going on. They're working in vacuums. And, um, if you go down a couple of layers in the organization and you ask like, what are the top three priorities for the business? People don't know. Yeah. Right. And in a McKinsey study, it says only 42% of employees say their leaders provide them with clear direction and context to make decisions effectively.

[00:29:36] So that means over half of teams are operating in ambiguity. Yep. Like that, I mean, and it's not surprising, but it's like, these are the things that slow people down. And, and I, you know, I think one of the things that we did do well at, at Netflix was context, context with everything. That's how we avoided the control. Right. So it was, you know, our, our philosophy on that was context, not control. Yeah. Right.

[00:30:06] So the job of the leader was to give context. And if you didn't give the right context and your team wasn't doing well, guess whose fault it was yours. I remember having this conversation with Reed one time way, way, way back in the day. And I was like, ah, my team, like, they're just not doing what they need to be doing. And like, oh my God. And he was like, well, you know whose fault that is? And I was like, yeah, there's duh. Like, um, he's like, no, it's yours. Yeah. And I was like, I was like, no, it's not.

[00:30:35] And he's like, no, it is. I'm fantastic. Yeah. I'm great. Reed. And, um, he was like, no, it's yours because you failed to set the proper context for them to be successful. And I just don't think enough companies and enough leaders think about that. And it's, it's the trickle down of information that just needs to happen. And when people don't understand what they need to do to be successful, you got a big problem on your hands.

[00:31:05] And I think that that is plaguing a bunch of companies. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I like, particularly in this time where we have, we have a lot of things going on. So, you know, I think about the things of like, you know, everyone was very excited in a important way. My view around DEI and, and being purposeful in bringing that into the workplace in a way that everybody had a way to show up and everything.

[00:31:34] And now, now that has become a politically charged thing. So what do you do with that? You have a whole bunch of team members who are feeling inclusive now, perhaps feeling excluded. So that's going to create problems. You've got, again, this five generations of employees or in the workplace, many of whom are being forced to come back to work for some that's like, you know, like, okay, here we go again.

[00:32:00] This is just like a routine that I know for others, it is an insult that you're, that you're asking me to do this outrageous thing and like pay for gas or, you know, transportation God forbid. Things like that. You've got, you know, people aging out, you've got all these complexities. So in this sort of like morass of complexity. So we've got clarity, we've got, you know, how we measure success and it's not retention.

[00:32:28] What, what are like the top issues, you know, in the chaos sort of of the workplace that are either opportunities for the future or the things like you really got to be focused on addressing right now, just when you go out there talking to so many. Yeah. The world in which we work now is a different world. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . There's all these things happening in the ethos of wherever you live, whether you're

[00:32:57] in the United States, you're in Brazil, you're in Germany, you're in France, it doesn't matter. There's all these things happening and there's a lot of anxiety and things happening. Right. Um, but what I think companies should try to focus on is, um, what is going to make their people and their business the most successful? Right?

[00:33:22] So Patty and I did, you know, DEI as you mentioned has sort of become this like politicized word which makes- Which is crazy. But- There it is. There it is. Yeah, it's fine. But, um, we did a whole episode on it, um, the other day where we just talked to each other as, you know, kind of CHROs like, you know, about this. Yeah. And we sort of went through the history and it's like companies get that diverse workforces

[00:33:51] are good for business. Yes. They do. Like, and this work has been happening for decades. Yep. And progress has been made. Yep. Right? Um, you and I can say, say that because we're women executives. We might not have been had progress not been made. Um, and the workforce looks a lot different than it did 30 years ago, looks different than it did even 10 years ago. So progress will be keep getting made.

[00:34:21] Right? Um, and great companies get that. Right? And it's good for business. So it's not going away. And the other thing that companies have to figure out is if you're going to have, um, a really incredible workforce that is representative of your customer, which, you know, if you're a global company, that's a global customer. Yep.

[00:34:49] Um, that will be great for business. And also you have to build an environment where these folks can thrive, where they can see themselves, where they can do the best work of their lives. And so I think that that should be the focus and try to hush out the noise. It's very hard not to. And then I think companies, you know, going back to clarity, I think what's happened also,

[00:35:15] um, over the past few years is that, you know, it was really hard to hire people. And so the pendulum in terms of like all the things you were going to get, if you, you know, let, we'll give you a massage. Well, you know, do your laundry. Like, you know, you have to be, you have to start being really clear about your, what you're going to do and what you're not going to do. And come P you know, let's talk about retention for a second.

[00:35:41] Employees don't leave because you didn't do their laundry or you didn't, you know, give them like a budget for, you know, buying a lesson on LinkedIn or whatever they leave because I would have left for that. Okay. Never had those perks, but anyway, go ahead. Um, but they leave because they don't have a good boss. Yeah. Yeah. Right. They aren't working on something that they feel they're passionate about. Right. And they don't think that they're paid well. Yep.

[00:36:11] People stay for bosses. Right. And they stay, even if they're not paid the best, but they think they're paid fairly and they love it. They stay. Yep. Right. So it's the environment. Yeah. That is, I, I, and I've just seen that so many times, like so, so, so many times. And that, you know, like you have this just incredible talent. They're not challenged enough. Right. You know, as, and it's just like, there's just like so many different, and then you recognize

[00:36:40] it too late. And then it's like, oh, well we can like, you know, that's like happens. Um, so many times. Um, so many times. And then I've seen, you know, just also in some of like, you know, for me as a, as a professional, some of the proudest moments I have as a leader is recognizing somebody who is, you know, doing something, something of value, but then elevating them to like the

[00:37:05] hot project, the thing that's really hard, you know, and just seeing something unlock in a way that is like surprising you. And you, I always, you know, learn something because these are always people who have different talents than I do that you can learn a lot from. And that, you know, generally, mostly, you know, people who are much younger than I am are the ones who are teaching me the most at this stage. Um, yeah. So, okay. Just, I want to close out on, um, truth works and, uh, you know, I'm going to

[00:37:35] You know, you've been doing this with Patty for a while. You, the two of you are a year now, right? You know, so like you've gotten, you've been doing it every week. You've been having powerhouse conversations, like, like, you know, all the lessons that people are talking about on your podcast. So why are you doing it? What are you learning? Oh my God. I learned so much from each. I mean, each guest, like, well, let's talk about what truth works is.

[00:38:04] Let's talk about what truth works is. So truth works is a podcast that Patty McCord, who was the original CHRO of Netflix, um, she and I started because one, we love each other and we wanted to like hang out together again. And the other thing is, is like, we are just so curious about work and how to make work better. And nobody tells you the truth about how work really works. And so we were like, let's just tell the truth about like how compensation works.

[00:38:33] Let's tell the truth about how promotions really happen. Um, and so, so much more. And, and when we've had people on the show from like a neurologist to, um, lots of like organizational behavioralists to CEOs and founders. And it is just fascinating. And I would say every time we learn something, we had, um, this gentleman on, uh, yesterday we recorded with, it'll be out in a couple of weeks.

[00:39:00] His name is Karthik, uh, Rabanin and he's, um, from Oxford professor, but he's an organizational behavioralist psychologist. And he wrote this book on, um, uh, leading in the age of outrage, which is kind of, you know, a little bit of what we were just talking about. Yeah. And, um, and what you can do as a leader. And, you know, these were things that I, you know, struggled with at Netflix in terms

[00:39:27] of, you know, how do we handle a crisis in Brazil? How do we handle a crisis in, in the U S and, you know, as a leadership team, we debated, we debated, do we, do we talk about these things? Do we not talk about these things? How do we, if we are going to talk about them, who's going to talk about them? How are we going to talk about them? How are you know? And then there's also just sort of the demand and pressure from employees to respond, to do something. And, and so he just gave, you know, tons of advice and, and lessons on that.

[00:39:56] And so every episode I walk away learning, I walk away energized and, and I hope that, you know, we're giving people some really good information to go off and do good stuff with. Yep. Yep. Well, it's fun to listen to that is for sure. That was yours. It's well, it's very clear that, thank you.

[00:40:24] It's very clear that you and Patty do have this like great rapport, um, enormous respect for each other. And clearly, you know, like the time you work together, that must've been a very, very fun time to build and create. And you can see a lot of that idea flow, you know, permeate into your discussions as you like, well, I have a comment about that. Well, I have a comment about that. I know we kind of, we go a little nuts, but both of us are just like, I would say like

[00:40:51] the one, like one of the common things that we have is we are just so curious. Like, and we, we just get so excited about things that like, we don't understand completely. Like, oh my gosh, tell us more, you know, we want to know everything. So, um, so it's been just a fun thing to do. So I hope people are enjoying it. Yep. Well, let's close out today on inspiring women. And we wanted to have Patty with us and she, I know she's, you know, here.

[00:41:17] So Patty, I will say what, one of the things about Patty, which I've told her throughout our, our, uh, career journeys with each other, she's not good at the details. So she probably like is with her grandkid, not looking at her phone and, um, it's okay. And yeah, we'll close up this inspiring women, um, interview. And what we're going to do is you can channel Patty and you can channel Patty's best advice

[00:41:46] for other aspiring women. So let's inspire them. What would Patty say to them? What would Patty say? Patty would say, just do it. Don't, don't let the fear get in your way. Just go for it. And I think I would save something very similar. So, you know, I think fear just holds us back. Right.

[00:42:14] And it helped, you know, I, I personally, you know, sort of set back a little bit sometimes because I was, you know, I'm a woman and we're sort of raised to do that. But also like, I would call my parents for like, I'd be like, I think I'm going to ask for a raise and like, don't you dare just put your head down and do great work. And like, you know, I was like, okay. And so I, I did that and I was lucky because things came my way and people recognize that,

[00:42:41] but I didn't advocate for myself really ever. And, um, and so I, I really wish I, I would have. Right. And, um, I think if you sit in the fear, it just overtakes you. And when you really think about it, the only bad thing that can happen is a no, but you didn't have it before the no anyways. Right.

[00:43:07] And at some point someone will say yes, you know? So I, I think don't, don't, don't hold back. Go get what you want and know, know you're worth it. That is awesome. It's a great way to close out. I've been speaking with Jessica Neal on inspiring women. Jessica, thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Thank you. It was so much fun. Highlight of my day. And, um, we'll do, we'll do another swap. We'll keep it going. All right. Okay.

[00:43:38] All right. Bye. This has been an episode of inspiring women with Lori McGraw. Please subscribe rate and review. We are produced at executive podcast solutions. More episodes can be found on inspiring women. Dot show. I am Lori McGraw and thank you for listening.