Firing Your Employer: Taking Control of Your Nursing Career

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[00:00:30] You're listening to Ask Nurse Alice presented by Nurse.org, where Alice Benjamin combines no nonsense advice with thought-provoking interviews. Hi friends, welcome to the Ask Nurse Alice podcast. This show we talk about anything and everything nursing and healthcare

[00:00:54] related. I'm your host Alice Benjamin, clinical nurse specialist, family nurse practitioner, and chief nursing officer at Nurse.org. Now in this episode I want to talk about something a little personal, a little near and dear to my heart. It's something that I've actually experienced.

[00:01:08] And you guys have heard me on a previous episode where I said I quit my job as MP. Now I'm not going to say that, but I did fire my employer. There you go. So you can see how

[00:01:20] I'm saying it a little bit differently. I didn't quit, but I fired my employer and for good reasons. So I know it sounds a little bit weird, but let's let me walk you into this. Now

[00:01:32] as nurses, as APNs, many of us we work in hospitals and clinics. Some in some form of healthcare, we have an employer. Now generally to get to said job, we've usually looked somewhere online for a job or maybe we're recruited, but it ultimately leads to

[00:01:50] filling up an application, doing some form of interview. After the interview, if offered a position, then it moves forward to background check, checking of your credentials, then on to hire in your first day, which is generally lots of new hire paperwork. There is some computer

[00:02:09] training, some clinical and skill sign-offs, orientation modules as well as clinical orientation working in the actual role. So it's a lot. Getting a job is not just like I apply Monday, I'm working Friday. Now it generally takes a minimum of at least two to three weeks generally,

[00:02:30] right? Unless you're already in a travel nursing type of system and you're doing that, that can be even shorter. But for the most part, if you're going to work for a hospital, like a staff position or as a provider for a group, and even if you're applying for

[00:02:42] a nurse practitioner, credentialing can take even longer, sometimes up to three months. So when you're applying for a job and you're going through the hiring process and onboarding, it's a lengthy investment. It's an investment of your time, your resources,

[00:02:57] and it's also an investment for the hospital or the group as well because they're spending money on all of these things. Now I say that to say this is why it's very, very, very important

[00:03:08] to be super and hyper vigilant in your probationary period. So a probationary period is generally a 98 window of time in which an employer is assessing to make sure that you as the new hire are qualified, have the attitude, aptitude skills, critical thinking, the team building,

[00:03:32] the are trustworthy, are the type of person that they want representing their organization and taking care of their patients. So it's a 98 period. Now in the event that 98 period, which is generally usually employment at will, if for whatever reason it's deemed that maybe you don't

[00:03:53] have the skill set or critical thinking or the attitude, aptitude, or teamwork or communication style or the work ethics that they like, or perhaps you made a minor mistake, there's usually a lot more stringent during this 98 period, or you've called in sick more often than should be because

[00:04:13] you're on orientation. They can do a lot to go. No notice, no separation page, just like, sorry, it's not working out. Somebody do it else. It's not a good fit. That's what I

[00:04:25] say. We've deemed that this has not been a good fit. We'd like to thank you for your time and your consideration for working in our hospital, but at this time we will be releasing you from

[00:04:34] employment here. Thank you for your services. That's what you get. Also during this process, during this probationary period, you're generally on orientation. You're having to do online modules and learning and those types of tests along the way like maybe a med test,

[00:04:51] EKG test, those type of things. You're having to get skills signed off like how to insert an IV and sort of following maybe as a provider, sutures, those type of things. You're getting assessed on

[00:05:04] your skill set and you're getting checked list signed off. That's pretty easy and straightforward enough, but they're also again, like they're looking at your attitude, your aptitude, your behavior and all of these things. My question here is if the organization

[00:05:19] has so much criteria in which they are critiquing you to deem that you deserve to be here or you should be here, that they should continue to pay you as if they're the end all be all. Why are we

[00:05:33] not doing the same? Why? That literally dawned on me not that long ago and I was like today years old when I was onboarding somewhere and guys, I wear multiple hats. So I'm never without a job.

[00:05:50] I used to have multiple jobs, but I was onboarding somewhere where I thought I really wanted to work and see, you know, I had moonlighted there and I thought, okay, this will be a place that I want

[00:06:00] to work as a provider and baby, I should have seen the red flags once I submitted the application and started going through the HR process because everywhere from the HR process to the administrative leadership process to then the interaction with clinical staff being on the

[00:06:24] other end now, the provider. It was like way different and I've seen red flags and the orientation process was like fumble after fumble after fumble after fumble. But I was already

[00:06:35] in it. I was already in it. I had arranged my schedule and such that I'd given this particular job all my time this month. So I had to work there. At least I thought I did to get paid because

[00:06:46] I hadn't given any availability in their work number work that I could pick up from my other jobs. So I'm like, oh, yeah, I got to work. I got to work it. I got to and I was also saying

[00:06:55] like, you know, it's new give it a shot Alice. Don't be so close minded. You know, roll with the punches, be a team player. And I did all that. And I let myself down because during the

[00:07:10] orientation process, like I mentioned, there's lots of fumbles, lots of a lot of miscommunication, a lot of Oh, I assumed you'd already I assume someone else had told you ice who the hell is

[00:07:23] assuming because when you assume you make an ass out of you and me literally, literally. And I just want to get I still want to be able to provide and take care of my patients. But

[00:07:31] I mean, I would get to work and not have computer access like my computer access was not set up for like a week. So I don't understand how you want me to see patients, write an ed visit notes

[00:07:44] how prescribed I don't need to have access. I'm going to do that. I can look a labs. And then when I do get access, because I'm orienting and because of all of the other stuff because

[00:07:54] of the lack of properly working equipment, I don't have a computer. Where do you want me to do my work? And so and then policies and procedures were just not very clear. There was no orientation

[00:08:08] on that. It was just like, find it on your own, figure it out. There was no lead and P or overseer of onboarding of new staff. Obviously, you have a medical director, but the medical

[00:08:20] director is not always there. And then you have different providers, some who only practice there twice three times a month, some where they're all the time and just was always someone new. And you know what it's like when you're orienting even as a nurse, someone new every

[00:08:33] time it's like you got to fall back a couple steps or learning something new. Someone teaches this way and then someone Oh, no, we don't do that no more. You're not supposed to do that.

[00:08:39] You do it this way. And I just was like, left and right, shitty orientation. But then I also saw some things that I also felt were like, not to my standard of practice,

[00:08:50] not the things that I would want done to my family or friends or myself, not the quality of care. And it was very disturbing. I was actually very disappointed. Did I learn some things? Yeah,

[00:09:04] sometimes when you were throwing in the belly of the beast, you all learned some things because you have to or you're just going to drown that day, you can't roll up or die because it's not really going to happen. You might feel like you want it to happen,

[00:09:12] but it ain't going to happen. So you got to just dust yourself off and try again. And so I learned a lot, but not because that's how I wanted it to learn it was trial by fire. And it was very

[00:09:23] there was in the volume of work, the scheduling was crazy, give your availability and then you don't know what you're gonna get to you get it sometimes working days, sometimes we're very nice, sometimes we're gonna make sure like, can you tell me like

[00:09:36] unlike bedside nursing where it's like I usually work days. I'm always gonna be 7a, 7a or night, 7p to 7a. Here it's like, I'm gonna work probably early morning, late, late evening, sometimes over midnight and like it's just crazy. You can plan nothing. You can plan nothing.

[00:09:52] And I just didn't realize that it was going to be like that. So it was like one thing was compounding another thing was compounding another thing and there really was no one person that could go to for true information or contact person who can really clarify everything. It's

[00:10:05] like, well, I think it's like this, but check what's on so long story short. There are a lot of red flags and it just ended up not being a place that I want to be in the federal social stringent.

[00:10:13] And then I had, you know how it is where you have to work absolutely and you need to request your days off. I respect that work needs to be the unit needs to take precedence. However, there are times where there are one no lifetime opportunities like you said,

[00:10:28] like a funeral or a wedding or a graduation, things that just can't or someone is sick in the hospital. There are there were there was one thing something personal that happened that

[00:10:42] there was no way hands down that I could miss it. I tried everybody in the book to schedule this and I'm just like, I'm on orientation. Like why do I even have to

[00:10:52] why don't I have to find someone to kind of cover me? So I kind of felt like what is happening here? I understand my schedule couldn't switch and they're just like, well,

[00:11:01] why do you need the day off? And it was a very personal high risk reason that was never going to have another opportunity to present itself again. And it was just some urgency and really

[00:11:12] a dire family matter to be honest. And when I was being given a hard time considering the sensitivity of the matter, I just thought, wow, this is this is not the place I want to be.

[00:11:26] Within my first 90 days. And so I fired my employer. Now some of you might say, oh, well, you you didn't fire your employer else you quit. Here's the thing. I had done certain things along

[00:11:36] the way to preserve employment, to really give them another shot to overlook the red flags. And I was in all of these things to try to stay there because I did want to work there. So

[00:11:46] I thought but then when the work conditions and the work environment became mentally and physically and spiritually and emotionally taxing. Uh, I couldn't do it the value of what I was getting

[00:11:56] paid compared to how I was leaving and how it's physically making me feel. It wasn't for me. It wasn't for me. Now I was really disappointed because I felt like I spent more time going through the higher interview and credentialing process and I did my time there.

[00:12:10] And I know they weren't happy because they probably felt like, oh, we trained this person. Well, really you didn't really did get into trying shit. But they felt like I'm sure they did. It was an investment because they had to have people create my computer logs,

[00:12:22] fix my computer issues and you know, put me through this whatever little four hour training that they, you know, all of these things I was supposed to do. So and they paid me for

[00:12:30] that time so I can see there was an investment there. But I say that to say it's okay to leave and fire an employer in the 90 day probation period. In fact, that is the best time to do

[00:12:42] it. Learn it early on. So we're not wasting money in the long run. We're not wasting time in the long run. Let's cut our losses early on and I want to wanted to share that message,

[00:12:52] wanted to empower you all by sharing my story because I think so many times we hire onto somewhere and we're miserable. We are miserable. We stay and we just drag our feet through it and we're

[00:13:04] doing it until something happens and then you know maybe we're let go and we're like, well shit, you let me go. I didn't even want to work here. Well, why didn't you

[00:13:12] just say that? Why didn't you cut your losses early on and get to a place where it would make you happy because in this day and this age after a pandemic, like, you know, we saw a lot of death

[00:13:22] life is too short. There's no reason why we should be staying anywhere where we are not celebrated and appreciated and feeling like we are draining ourselves versus filling our cups. So the sooner you can identify that an employer is not for you,

[00:13:37] the sooner you can fire them and the sooner you can get to the next job, which hopefully is a place where you can flourish. You can be happy and do all the things that you

[00:13:46] want to do in an environment that's going to be conducive to your growth. So I fired my employer y'all. Okay, I fired my employer now, although I'm encouraging you all to do that. I also

[00:13:56] want to share some gems so that you consider these things before you do it because I consider these things also before I actually pulled the plug on that job. And I just want you to consider

[00:14:07] these things because someone like myself, 24 years of experience literally in any clinical area, I can thrive. I can do it pretty much for the most part. My experience allows me to obtain employment fairly easy. Some people might not find themselves in that boat. Some people may

[00:14:22] find that there's not as many positions available in the area where they live and those type of things. And you just don't want to quit your job and not have a means to pay for

[00:14:31] your bills because if you quit a job, you're not eligible for unemployment. So you're going to have to consider that, especially if you're responsible for family, kids, parents and things like that. So here are five things I want you to consider before you fire your employer.

[00:14:44] Document your incidents and concerns. So before you terminate your employer, it's going to be crucial as you're, especially in the decision making process, that you've documented incidents and concerns that you have during your probationary period.

[00:14:56] Now I just told you a whole list of them about not having a computer access, not having a computer, all of these red flags, no one being able to orient me like shady things happening and

[00:15:05] things like that. So you'll want to document those things so you can objectively decide like, okay, you know what? I saw this, this, this happened. Yeah, doesn't look like it's a place for me because sometimes we can forget that these things happen or our days blend

[00:15:19] and then we'll lose the urgency or severity behind it like, oh, you know what? It wasn't that, that when really it was. So you document these things and not just for your own decision making

[00:15:28] needs, but in the venture there's ever a discussion where are you doing your ex interview and they asked you know, so what, so why did you decide to leave? And these could be things that can be minor, severe, whatever the case may be. They can range from harassment,

[00:15:41] discrimination, unsafe work conditions, ethical violations, a bunch of different things, but document what's happening. So like during orientation, you and your preceptor are supposed to document how your day went, the things that you achieved, areas for improvement,

[00:15:57] things like that. Okay, yeah, you're going to document my performance. Let me document on what happened over here. We had no IV pumps the entire day, work short staff, whatever the case may be,

[00:16:10] but I had no computer access, no one from IT was available to help me. I was so expected to see patients, but had no way to document whatever that case may be. You want to document

[00:16:20] how your employer performed in your eyes. Okay, I definitely think that that's necessary now. And employers are like, well we want feedback. Listen, they're not ready for this stuff we have to tell them. But and I don't even know if there's room on that little sheet

[00:16:34] to put that type of input on there, but you at a minimum for your purposes need to keep that information. So document incidents and concerns. Number two, exhaust communication and conflict resolution efforts. So as you're going through your

[00:16:47] orientation process, if there are red flag that come up concerns, issues, I know it's new, you don't want to pick up any deaths, you don't want to seem problematic, but if there are opportunities to speak up about something, to address a concern, say something,

[00:17:01] go ahead and say something. And you know, hey, they could listen to you and they can fix the problem. Perfect. That means they heard you, they see you and they're listening and they're here to fix it. I want to work for an employer like that. That's great.

[00:17:13] So if I can express a concern and it gets fixed, perfect. Now if I express a concern to a charge nurse, a supervisor, a boss and nothing is done, it's downplayed, I'm made to look like I'm crazy. That's noteworthy too because I don't want to work anywhere where

[00:17:27] they say they want to hear my feedback, but they do nothing about it. So raise concerns, open up the conversation, create dialogue. And you want to do so in a very objective,

[00:17:37] non-judgmental way. So you know, I'm new here. I did see X, Y and Z. I just wanted to clarify, what is the process for when this happens? How can I make sure that I get this for the patient

[00:17:47] and I'm able to do this? Let them talk you through the process. And also during that process, they should be also educating to you, to other resources, the stakeholders, policies and procedures to help make your job easier. Okay. But try to exhaust those communications. So

[00:18:02] if you tell the charge nurse something happens, maybe you have, and you should have an opportunity to talk to the manager or assistant nurse manager periodically through your orientation or at least to the medical director, someone should be kind of periodically checking in with you,

[00:18:15] a boss, not just your preceptor. Should be checking with you to see how things are going. So you can express to your preceptor, charge nurse, supervisor, medical director, and those type of things depending on your job. So do that. And then if nothing's changing,

[00:18:28] note it yourself. You can't change a job, so change the job. Okay. Number three, get some professional or legal advice before you check up the deuces. And the reason why I say that

[00:18:38] is because sometimes we can get into our feelings, our ego and we can see something with our blinders on. And it's important that we kind of dialogue with someone who's objective so we can take those

[00:18:48] blinders off and they can really help us to better digest the larger situation what's happening. Cause we might think that someone's being malicious or something in a certain way, but then if someone else and we tell the story and they listen to us like, oh well no,

[00:18:58] I think what they were really trying to do is X, Y and Z. And you're like, oh, okay. What a personal attack. It's just, I didn't see that part. Maybe I was just so caught up in my

[00:19:10] emotions and not, I was feeling so bad that day that I just knew that everyone's out to get me. And that might not be the case. So getting some advice for someone to kind of just

[00:19:18] walk you through the process. It's so great to have a mentor. Mentors are chosen, they're not assigned, but consult with someone about that. And then I hope you don't have to, but also maybe you need legal consultant to find out what your rights or obligations are.

[00:19:31] Maybe you want to consult with your professional nursing organization and be like, you know what, this is kind of what they've been doing. This is kind of the standards. Is this the standard

[00:19:38] or practice everywhere else? Like look for those type of resources to kind of walk you through some of those things to help you better understand your rights, your obligations and potential consequences of you just picking up and leaving right away where maybe

[00:19:54] you didn't have to leave. Maybe it was something that could have been worked through. So that's a good resource for you. And then also you'll want some guidance on the employment. So

[00:20:02] if you've hired onto a job where you've committed for two years and they've promised to invest in your orientation for this much, or they put you through this certification that's worth this value, there might be some obligation based on where you work to return some of those

[00:20:16] monies. I'm not sure maybe you got a sign on bonus and then you got some of the bonus but then you leave like are you obligated to pay that back? So I don't know the answers

[00:20:24] of that for you or where you live or your state or your hospital. So you'll want to just check in and which by the way those are questions. These are might be some of the questions that even

[00:20:34] early on in your interview process when you're talking with HR for you accept the offer to say, you know, I'm sure everything's going to go well during my orientation process. But in the event something changes, something happens, I need to urgently move for whatever reason. And I'm

[00:20:49] no longer able to fulfill the two year commitment. And I have to leave earlier than that. What are what would happen with the sign on bonus? Or am I required to have to pay anything back like

[00:21:00] get those questions out early on when there's nothing at risk on the table, you just want to be informed. It's like, you know, I just really want to be informed. My mentor told me

[00:21:07] that these are very important questions that we should be prepared for and not wait till something happens. So you can ask those questions early on. Okay. Number four, financial planning. Don't go up quitting your job if you don't have any savings, please do not. If like if

[00:21:22] you are you've hired onto this job, you're waiting for your first paycheck couple paychecks, you got you know, you're behind on your bills. I know I hate it. I hate that I even have to say this.

[00:21:31] But if you quit your job, you won't be eligible for unemployment. I want don't want you to be homeless. I don't want you to be hungry. I want your phone to get cut off.

[00:21:38] So just be mindful of that and consider that and strategically plan things so that you're able to before you fire your employer, make sure that you have some form of savings or ongoing financial support so you can take care of your obligations. Because when you when you leave

[00:21:56] that job, there's going to be a loss of income, right? You're no longer going to be getting that income. How are you going to sustain yourself and your family and your household in the interim till you find another job? So just be mindful of that. Do some financial

[00:22:09] planning before you just check up the nuisance. Okay. And number five, if you're getting the feeling like this is not the place for me, I'm going to fire my employer along with some planning

[00:22:20] and strategic miss about this. Don't just be like, I quit today. That's it. Although you might you're quitting may happen sooner versus later. Once you get even the single thought that this might not be the place for you start looking, start looking for alternative employment options.

[00:22:35] So perhaps you might even have an interview lined up and maybe even a job offer before you actually fire your current employer. And how great would that be? You probably feel more empowered to let go of that toxic situation to go somewhere else sooner if you have something,

[00:22:54] if you have a job teed up already. So that'd be great. But at a minimum, start that job, search, start getting interviews lined up before you fire your employer. And I'll say this,

[00:23:06] before you even leave your employer, if, if is a big if, if you like the hospital, but maybe the unit that you're on is not for you, maybe there's an opportunity for you to even

[00:23:19] transfer to another area. Now, that's a little difficult if you haven't had this conversation in your interview, right? What you could say in your interview before you accept and say, you know, I really am excited about working in an emergency room. But in the event I find

[00:23:31] out that that's my environment for me. And because I have all of this telemetry background, would there, would it be possible for me to, to consider trim, maybe transitioning to the

[00:23:40] tele unit in the event that the ER doesn't seem to be good fit for me? As I question early on, how does contingency plans plan A plan B plan C? Because we are not playing with the bag,

[00:23:50] y'all. We have to make sure we've secured the bag. And it's not because we're selfish. It's not because we want to go on rich vacations and buy up a whole bunch of nice things, although we do. It's because we want to be financially responsible with our employment.

[00:24:03] I love being a nurse, but I also love that I have a job that I love that I can get paid for. I have a family to provide for, I have obligations. And so when it comes to employment,

[00:24:16] we don't have to put all of our eggs in one basket. And even if we do always have a contingency plan, always have a plan B about if this job doesn't work. And, you know, when you get into those entrepreneurship discussions, they'll say,

[00:24:27] you know, you should have seven streams of revenue. Well, if you don't have seven streams of revenue, at least have a backup plan for this one don't work. Then I have this, but

[00:24:35] I'm going to encourage you to have more than one stream of revenue, which is what I have, which is why when I fired this employer, it didn't hurt my pockets or anything. I had

[00:24:43] savings. I had other jobs to fall back on. So it didn't hurt my pockets. Maybe it did for a little bit because of how I scheduled myself. But because I had other things to fall

[00:24:52] back on, I didn't feel as bad. I didn't feel like I had to stay in a toxic environment for any longer than I had to because I identified it was not the place for me. And that's okay.

[00:25:02] It is okay. There's nothing to be ashamed about. There's nothing to feel bad about. For some people, that is the best place in the world to work. But for me, it wasn't. It doesn't mean that they're the worst place to work and doesn't mean that I'm a bad

[00:25:16] nurse practitioner or a bad nurse. Not at all. It just means it wasn't a good fit. It's like dating. You can have a good guy and a good girl, but if there's no chemistry,

[00:25:23] there's no chemistry. Why are we dragging this on? Let's both agree to cut our losses, say thank you, agree to cut our losses and be on our merry way so we can find,

[00:25:32] they can find employees that really want to thrive in their environment. And I can find the employer or the work environment that's going to be best for me. There's nothing wrong with that. But I had to bring up this conversation because as nurses, I don't think that we

[00:25:47] evaluate our employers with the same scrutiny that they evaluate us and we should. And I think that if we were more proactive in the area and did that, we'd be better and quicker at finding out if a

[00:25:59] place is for us or isn't for us. And once we've identified it's not for us, we can get going on to the next step. Like okay, if not this place, let me go on to the next place.

[00:26:09] And until we find a place where we're thriving and we are loving our job and we are loving what we do. And that's where we should work. That's really where you should work. If you're

[00:26:18] somewhere and you're working like I hate this place and makes me think it's when I pull up in a parking lot, maybe you need to fire your employer. Maybe you need to work somewhere else. I'm going to

[00:26:26] encourage you to find the environment where you're going to fill your best and do your best and thrive and grow and become like all you can be. But I do understand that it may not

[00:26:37] be easy as just jumping ship like that. So I'm hopeful that the tips that I provided you in today's podcast are helpful for you to kind of get the ball rolling because I want you to

[00:26:46] understand your value, understand your worth. You are very valuable. You have so much to offer. Nurses are in high demand. The place that you're at may not be the place for you or may not

[00:26:55] be for right now or maybe it served its purpose and it's time for you to move on. Either way, I want you to be happy with what you do and happy with where you work.

[00:27:03] Okay? Because a lot of us aren't compassionate fatigue because we're not happy with where we are or we work and for a variety of reasons, whether schedule, whether it's pay, whether it's work conditions. Now some of you are going to say, well, I like that everywhere.

[00:27:16] Maybe it's not as bad everywhere. Maybe it's worse where you are. Now only you can answer that. Only you can answer that because I don't know. I only you know what you'll put up with,

[00:27:25] but I know what I'm not going to put up with and that place where I was at was not what I was going to put up with. It made me physically, mentally, emotionally and financially

[00:27:33] unhappy. It did considering the amount of work I was putting into that with the amount of return. And I'm not just talking about money, but just the satisfaction at this day and age. I'm just

[00:27:43] not going to do it. I'm not going to sacrifice my well being for that. I love taking care of patients and I will do the best I can for them, but I can also take care of patients in other

[00:27:50] environments and I can't feel bad about that because I too one day will be a patient and I want a happy nurse taking care of me. I really do. So those are five of my five

[00:27:59] tips, those things I want you to consider before you fire your employer. And then also, again, make sure you guys when you go to a new place, new take on a new job. And even if

[00:28:06] you're not in your probationary period and no evaluations, come annually about your employer as well. Okay? Because you deserve nothing but the best when it comes to where you're going to work. I know you love being a nurse. Now let's make sure that where you're working at

[00:28:22] loves that you love being a nurse and is going to do everything to help you grow and be the best nurse that you can be. Okay guys. So thanks so much for tuning

[00:28:28] in today's episode. I hope this was helpful to someone shout out to nurse.org for always supporting the podcast about them. I wouldn't be able to deliver this message to you through

[00:28:36] the podcast. So thanks and check out nurse.org. I want you to get a chance and please, you know, guys, I love coming to chat with you guys and what would be so helpful for me

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[00:28:53] Let me know what you thought with the episode leave five stars all of those things on your favorite podcast platform because that's going to help this podcast get out to more people and help grow the podcast. So if you could, I would greatly appreciate all the support

[00:29:05] and all the love. If you want to be a guest on the next podcast or you have an idea that you'd like me to talk about a topic or those type of things, let me know. You can

[00:29:12] email me at nurse alice at nurse.org or you can also text me and let me know what your idea is at 725-910-9676 would love to hear from you guys. Truly truly would. I'm nurse Alice. Thank you so much for tuning in and until next time guys,

[00:29:27] please make good choices, be kind to one another and live well my friends. Thanks for listening to Ask Nurse Alice. Visit nurse.org for nursing career, education and community resources.