Sarah Ticho and Niki Smit are the creators of SoulPaint, an innovative virtual reality (VR) experience designed to make emotions visible and help people connect with their bodies and feelings. Here are the key takeaways from their conversation:
- Origin Story: Sarah's personal experience navigating the healthcare system and feeling unheard led her to explore VR as a tool for expressing complex emotional states. She discovered body mapping, a process where individuals draw their emotions on a physical body outline, and saw potential in translating this to VR.
- Collaboration: Sarah and Niki met while working on a breath-controlled VR experience called Deep. Their collaboration on SoulPaint began when they discussed combining Sarah's healthcare insights with Niki's game design expertise to create an immersive experience where users can paint their emotions onto a 3D avatar in VR.
- Innovative Features: SoulPaint allows users to express emotions through painting and embodiment in VR. The experience leverages the visual and associative nature of human thinking to bypass language barriers in describing emotions. Users can paint their feelings onto a 3D avatar and then reflect on their creation, providing a new way to understand and communicate emotional experiences.
- Therapeutic Benefits: The platform aims to address challenges in communicating complex emotional experiences, particularly in healthcare settings where time is limited. By using play and embodiment, SoulPaint helps users access their subconscious feelings in a freer and more instinctive way.
- Future Vision: The creators envision SoulPaint as a tool for mental wellbeing and emotional regulation, leveraging the engaging nature of VR and game design to create healthy behaviors.
--- About Soul Paint - www.soulpaint.co
Niki Smit is an interactive artist creating playful experiences at the intersection of art, science and education. As co-director of Monobanda he has directed several award winning experiences including Explore Deep, Remembering, In My Absence and The Shape of Us. In 2020 he was awarded the Dutch Directors Guild award for Best Digital Storytelling.
Sarah Ticho is a multi-award-winning artist, strategist, and entrepreneur. She is founder of Hatsumi, a multidisciplinary agency dedicated to advancing human-centred experiences at the intersection of immersive art, scientific research, and healthcare. As co-director of the XR HealthAlliance, she supports the equitable adoption of immersive technology for healthcare across strategy and policy. Her work is featured in Forbes and BBC, and she speaks at festivals and institutions globally.
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Nathan C: It's Monday, y'all.
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Let's get real.
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Sarah Ticho: Sunday!
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Nathan C: Okay.
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Welcome to the Glow Up Fabulous Conversations with Innovative
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Minds.
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I'm Nathan C, and today I am talking with Sarah Ticho and
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Niki Smit.
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Thank you both for joining me today.
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Sarah Ticho: Aw, thanks for inviting us!
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Nikki: Yeah.
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Nathan C: Okay, so let's get into it.
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Sarah, we've met and talked previously on the AR Minute and
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others about the number of projects that you're on.
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Niki, this is the first time I'm getting to chat with you.
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so excited to learn about your journey.
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The first question we usually start off with is just, could
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you briefly describe, the core problem, that you're working on?
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And usually I ask that your company is working on, but, this
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is more of a partnership.
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So, could you tell me about the core problem space that your
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partnership is working on and, the journey that brought the two
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of you to working together?
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Niki: Ah, this is interesting because I think we both have
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different answers, so that is so great.
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Sarah, do you want to take the first one
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Sarah Ticho: my gosh, alright, let's it! Stories how we ended
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up working together.
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I think that, I guess origin story of SoulPaint, I guess does
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with me, is that I had no interest in VR or was
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particularly aware of it at all, it was of through my own
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experience of navigating, the National Health Service here in
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the UK and being quite unwell a few years ago, I just found that
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I just wasn't feeling particularly heard by healthcare
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professionals, that they're so to prescribe medication, but
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have very limited time able understand you, and like, how do
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we find words to be able to talk about experience?
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I think started to see the doctor's is almost like this
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performance space where you have a limited of moment explain
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what's going on.
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And, I ended up sort of discovering the broader world
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how virtual reality can be used as a tool for providing insight
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into, lived experience, like we've amazing projects like
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Goliath by Anagram as a, clear example we can visualize all
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these different worlds, also how it be used therapeutically,
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which Niki and I also talk to about kind of other that we've
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worked with in the past.
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I discovered this incredible arts and health research method
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when I was a VR and mental health curator at a festival in
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Australia, called body mapping, which is this process where
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traditionally you would trace around your body on a big piece
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of paper and go through this mindfulness experience and
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imagine, where do I I feel anxiety in my body?
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Or what does pain look like?
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How you locate it and how might you illustrate that?
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And I loved it as a process of how you can use Drawing to
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express things that are really hard express, I'm also not good
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at drawing, even though that's not what body mapping is about,
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but we have this desire to be, you fantastic artists.
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I tried like tilt brush and I just loved you could paint and
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sculpt spatially, you can paint with animated brushes.
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so, I started to explore like, wouldn't this be really
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interesting if you could paint where you feel emotions and
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sensations in your body in 3D onto a 3D avatar, with different
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brushes as a way of expressing that experience?
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And so I started to work on that myself and was like learning
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about how does the world of VR work?
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do you need to work with?
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And it was through that process, I'd made a couple of prototypes,
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but it just felt like there was about the story that was
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missing, or how can you use like game design in it, and Niki and
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I had been working together for a few years already on a breath
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controlled VR experience called Deep.
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but one night we were chatting after a work call, and he was
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telling me about this piece he made called Copy Paste Dance,
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where you are moving and dancing in virtual reality.
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and I just loved how he was using embodiment and movement
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and really thinking about, VR from a game design perspective
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rather than I was looking at it quite pragmatically.
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And so, I think we said like, what would it be like if you
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could dance with your sadness?
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and that was the moment we were like, okay, we need to write an
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application together and we need to kind of expand this concept
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more.
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And that was really where our collaboration first began.
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Niki: about
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Sarah Ticho: how we've ended up developing it.
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Niki: I think that's jumping ahead a few steps.
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Like, if we go back to the question, what's the main
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problem that we're solving?
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I think for me, there is the frustration that we have this
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beautiful medium that we almost instinctively are drawn to.
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And by that medium, I mean video games in the narrow sense and
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embodied play in the broader sense.
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And that especially embodied play, Embodies, almost
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everything, all the building stones, building blocks we need
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for a, for a sort of healthy mental well being, emotion
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regulation, connectedness with your body, connectedness with
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the other, checking in with yourself, but you rarely ever,
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if ever, see it in video games, or at least, you didn't.
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16 years ago when I started my company.
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The question was always, how can we leverage this beautiful new
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interactive medium of playful behavior, in a technological
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setting to not only be entertainment.
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Not even only be art, but be something that can help us in
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the long run, especially in this world where We are in a mental
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health epidemic We are in a world that goes faster and
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faster it's getting harder and harder to regulate all those
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stimuli that are fired towards us every day and what if we can
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use the things that we're already drawn to as escapism,
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video games, and play?
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What if we could use that and leverage that to actually be the
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healthy behavior?
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and that is where I met Sarah.
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we met on a previous project, And then, one evening we were
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talking about her project, and I was showing her things of mine.
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And she just said, ah, just to repeat you Sarah, wouldn't it be
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so great if we just took your project, and my project, and we
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just smooshed them together.
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And then, you could paint your own emotions, but then also
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embodiment them, and then dance with your own sadness in VR.
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I was like, oh, yeah, let's do that.
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Even though you, Sarah, you had been working on SoulPaint, which
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had been previously known as Hatsumi for, I think, seven or
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eight years?
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It sort of got an evolution when we got together and said like,
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okay, let's make this, this sort of, is this bigger thing.
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Sarah Ticho: And so to answer your question from the beginning
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as well, because I think we love the story around it.
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so particularly what we've created together is this piece
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that's really about Inviting people to connect to their body,
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and how we can understand our emotions, and kind of felt sense
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in a more deeper way.
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how we can use that as a way of having conversations with
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people, and connecting to others.
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and how we can create a space where people can Like,
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emotionally express themselves as well.
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So it's really about kind of exploring the embodiment of
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feeling and that that is therapeutic in itself, that
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connect, that being able to express feelings is valuable,
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but also how we make sense of things when we, we don't really
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have the language to.
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Niki: Because that, like, as a very clear and concrete example
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of how play can help with this, is we as people are deeply
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visually associative creatures.
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that's the reason we have things like abstract paintings.
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The moment you look at a bunch of colors and textures, you go,
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Oh, this makes me feel like sad, or this makes me feel like
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happy, or this is like very pressure or aggressive.
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so we do that already.
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Then if we go back to sort of the core problem of how can we
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talk about our emotions in a more instinctive way that we get
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to be introspective and we get to keep a finger on the pulse on
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our own emotional well being, but do it in a way that is not
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complicated and not filled with judgment because language can be
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so binary and so, you know, I'm depressed.
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It's already hard to, acknowledge and say out loud,
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I'm depressed and not just a little sad or a little burned
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out at the moment, you know?
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So what SoulPaint does, I think, so well and what it surprised me
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that, you know, Jumping on Sarah's train a little later,
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with this concept is that drawing your emotions in VR in
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your body is playful, but it's not thinking about your emotions
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yet.
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Because what happens is the moment you start drawing, that
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instinctive, playful mind kicks in, and you go into free
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association.
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So at that moment you're not thinking anymore, Hmm, should I
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use red to convey my anger?
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No.
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Yeah, you have a starting point and then you just start
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instinctively grabbing brushes and textures and going wild.
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It's only after you're done in the experience that we then ask
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you, so this is how you feel.
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Now that you take a step back, could you describe what you just
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made?
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And that describing, that is then actually the moment where
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you start reflecting on your instinctive, playful, Sort of
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stream of thought sort of thing, what that you did.
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So instead of just offering you a new way to reflect on your own
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emotions, what we, I think actually do is we leverage play
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to make you access your subconscious and freer way to
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think about that.
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Nathan C: I can't believe.
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How many, critical topics of the moment are all kind of wrapped
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up into this immersive experience that you're talking
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about in SoulPaint.
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I've spent a bit time with family at the hospital recently
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and this idea that there's barely any time you need to
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communicate your story to somebody, you know, incredibly
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quickly.
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And often these are moments where you may not have your
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words or your faculty or that full, bravery.
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You're off and in these awkward scenarios, there's this, right
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as an ADHD person, I struggle with interoception in general,
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just understanding what my body is doing at all.
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And some of the most powerful things that I've experienced, to
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understand.
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You know, my own brain has been that act of just like, well,
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what does it feel like?
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You know, where is this showing up?
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You know, that curiosity, can really not just tell you about
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where you are, but like help you, move through it just by
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having a little bit more of that information.
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So there's a number of these things here that I just.
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want to get into, but you're pushing on one of my core sort
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of assumptions at Awesome Future is this idea that like products
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have to have a purpose first.
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And that's how they're really good when you're like working
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into new technologies.
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You're like, well, I had this really practical idea that I
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wanted to work with, and it wasn't until I brought somebody
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in who could help me engage in that native magic.
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And to put the content in the channel in the right way, is my
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marketing framework of it.
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Right.
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you want to pick the experience and then you pick the technology
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for it.
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And I love that you actually came up to these barriers of
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like the pragmatic use case side and needed to get into that like
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creative interaction side.
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And that's kind of what's bringing this partnership.
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Often one of the questions I ask in these conversations is like,
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tell me about the moment where you chose to bet on you, but
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like, in this case, you've both bet on you already, you're
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already moving forward with these audacious ideas and these
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companies that you founded.
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When do you know?
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How did you know to bet on each other, in that same way?
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tell me a little bit more about the partnership and, how you
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decide to bring.
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Sarah Ticho: Cause makes me feel really emotional.
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what a beautiful way to frame that as well.
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of want I kind of want to be like you first because I feel
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scared to say it but I think maybe I'll be brave.
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I was really scared of Nicky when I first met him because
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he's just like Dutch.
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Full cloud niky: and
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Sarah Ticho: so, because the way that I first came across Nicky
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was that, he was part of DEEP, which
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Full cloud niky: this
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Sarah Ticho: like, awesome project that had been, on the
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road for a long time.
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This beautiful breath controlled experience that had been co
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created with scientists and Niki,
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Nikki: like
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Sarah Ticho: the motor behind it.
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And I remember when I got invited to like be a producer
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with them and Niki asking me all these questions and I was just
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like, Oh, I get a bit nervous sometimes.
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And I don't know if I always know what I'm doing.
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And he just asked me a question.
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I was like, Oh, I'm really scared of this guy.
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and then we started working together on on Deep for like two
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two and a half years.
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and so I think it was through that time that we, really
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developed our relationship.
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and I think it's so hard with finding collaborators and co
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founders cause it's like this really weird, intense, almost
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form of dating, right?
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That it's just like, do you want the same things that I want?
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like what is actually like, What drives us?
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And what values do we have?
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And like, where do we want these things to go?
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and particularly in the world of VR, because like, no one's doing
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this to become a millionaire, right?
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That it's just like, what, what is the thing that drives us?
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And I think it was through being able to spend that time
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together, that really, made me have such a deeper appreciation
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for Niki, like, just as a, as a human, as an artist, as like a
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founder, that like, I already felt so safe in, in so many
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different aspects of him as a creator and a person.
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That, felt like a no brainer, and I was like, I just need to,
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charm him into this, and, how do I do that?
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Niki: I was very lucky to have Sarah on my team with Deep,
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because the way I describe you, Sarah, is, you know, you're a
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rocket that one day will make a dent in the universe.
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it was really synergetic, because, Sarah had, Everything
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that I was lacking around me up until that point.
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Which is this energy that could keep up with my energy, that,
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extremely deep frame of reference around healthcare,
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therapy, science, and health innovation.
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Like, if you, Let Sarah talk for 20 minutes, you'll get the most
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beautiful anecdotes and quotes and, knowledge tidbits and there
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were all these things that resonate with my work, but that
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I couldn't necessarily express myself.
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So, she together with my, with my, scientist colleague, Dr.
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Johanneke Weertmeister, also good, good friend of ours.
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It was just this sort of elevation of what I was already
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doing.
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So it was like, oh, I know what I'm doing.
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From sort of an instinctive standpoint, what I'm doing is
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important, but I can't really put it into words.
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And then, yeah, Sarah came along and, she was like, Well,
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actually what you're doing is this and this and this, and it's
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important in a broader sense because this and this and this.
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Also, being so deeply curious that if you put something game
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design adjacent in front of her, she'll dive into that and learn
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that, and so it was just, yeah, came just together in a very
00:16:40
logical way.
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And then she invited me into her project and we talked about that
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for a while, like, look, I mean, we're friends now, and working
00:16:51
together also brings with it stress and different ways of
00:16:53
working, so are we sure we want to do this?
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but at that point we already had, like, We already shared so
00:17:01
many sort of deciding deadline moments, that we kind of already
00:17:06
knew each other and each other's sort of pitfalls communication
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and way of working when we're, pressed for sleep or energy.
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So we're like, yeah, I think we can.
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so yeah, how did that really start, Sarah?
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Do you remember, did we just start and started writing that
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funding application?
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Did we do something before?
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Sarah Ticho: I think we'd been, like, talking about it for a
00:17:26
while, and meanwhile, I'd also been speaking to Anna, who's
00:17:33
our, like, and line producer and I think it started out of, like,
00:17:39
this?
00:17:40
Be cool.
00:17:41
I wonder how that's possible.
00:17:43
And meanwhile, yeah, I had a good friend that I'd also been
00:17:46
having these kind of meandering conversations with that also has
00:17:50
a background in science communication and working in VR
00:17:53
and she worked with places like Marshmallow Laser Feast and the
00:17:56
Welcome Collection in London.
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I was just like, wow, you really get this, but also like, you're
00:18:01
a producer and you know how to do these things.
00:18:03
And again, like, had that like, really close connection, but it
00:18:06
was also like, oh, you're a friend, but how does this,
00:18:10
change the relationship?
00:18:12
And then we saw this funding, to do some, prototype funding,
00:18:16
through the Dutch Film Fund.
00:18:17
And I was like, oh, maybe this is, an opportunity for us to,
00:18:21
work together.
00:18:21
So, us, Anna, who has been through the project ever since,
00:18:26
and Joe.
00:18:27
And it just felt like the right people coming together at the
00:18:30
right time.
00:18:32
But I think she was such a valuable part of it in that I
00:18:36
say that I'm a producer, like whatever a producer is, which is
00:18:39
kind of getting stuff done sometimes all the time, but also
00:18:44
someone that can have that strategic analytical, like what
00:18:47
are we actually making?
00:18:48
How do you do that?
00:18:49
How do you turn that into like a really coherent application
00:18:52
where you're not so, saying you're going to over deliver on
00:18:55
all this stuff for like, not enough budget.
00:18:58
and, and someone, and she's brilliant because she can
00:19:01
oscillate between that like deeply strategic planning, but
00:19:05
also like hold the creative and having someone that was like
00:19:09
this kind of, like referee between us when sometimes we
00:19:13
could have like totally different opinions on what we
00:19:16
wanted to make and how we were going to do it.
00:19:18
And so, yeah, it definitely wasn't just us.
00:19:22
Nathan C: This expansion, right.
00:19:23
one of the pieces of advice that I hear a lot for founders,
00:19:27
especially anybody with a big idea, is, you know, to stay in
00:19:32
your wheelhouse and do the things that you are strongest
00:19:37
at, where your inspiration and interests and energy come from,
00:19:41
is often, a founder's biggest challenges, as well as having
00:19:46
enough time in the day to attend to all the things, founders need
00:19:50
mentors, they need people to vent to, to bounce ideas off of.
00:19:55
And because it seems that you had this working relationship
00:19:59
and took some mindful steps.
00:20:01
to really lay out the goals and foundation of the partnership,
00:20:05
you're able to support each other to recognize each other.
00:20:10
I mean, the way that you recognize and appreciate each
00:20:13
other's strengths, and talents here, I get goosebumps hearing,
00:20:16
each other talk about the team.
00:20:18
you sort of naturally filled in a lot of these gaps or struggles
00:20:22
that founders have, in those early stages.
00:20:25
And I love how, a funding moment, was kind of one of these
00:20:30
watershed moments that, allows you, to take that bet to dive
00:20:33
in.
00:20:34
I love the way that you seem to have grown on.
00:20:36
Sarah, could you describe for me the SoulPaint experience, like,
00:20:42
in one minute?
00:20:43
I want to just make sure that we have a super succinct,
00:20:45
description of the experience as it is today, because I think
00:20:49
it'll help.
00:20:50
we'll put it back at the top.
00:20:52
It'll help folks, join us on this ride.
00:20:54
Sarah Ticho: I wonder if you might be better at this.
00:20:56
Niki: I can take a step and then we'll take it from there.
00:20:59
Sarah Ticho: Yeah.
00:20:59
I feel like you do the poetry better.
00:21:03
Niki: Well, thank you.
00:21:04
I think you do the poetry better and then I'm good at being very
00:21:08
Dutch, which if you look at their landscape, it's like very
00:21:11
square and segmented.
00:21:13
I can sort of segment it off and go like duck, duck, duck.
00:21:17
with that being said, SoulPaint is a, virtual reality experience
00:21:22
where we ask you the question, where do you feel?
00:21:26
So not how do you feel, but where do you feel?
00:21:29
And in it, we ask you to take a virtual paintbrush and a virtual
00:21:36
palette and step out of your body.
00:21:39
And then look upon your body and think, this emotion that I feel
00:21:43
now inside of me, or maybe another emotion that was really
00:21:46
impactful for me, where in my body does that live and what
00:21:50
color would it have and what texture would it have, So we
00:21:53
give you a new way to reflect upon and talk about your own
00:21:58
emotions.
00:22:00
And then we take you through this.
00:22:02
Poetic embodied ritual where you're taking through this sort
00:22:06
of magical journey where you can control yourself and at the end
00:22:10
You also get the chance to tell a story about what you made and
00:22:15
then also meet the creations of other people What other people
00:22:19
made and thus in that last sort of climactic moment you realize,
00:22:24
hey, I'm not alone in this.
00:22:27
other people also have this invisible hidden world of
00:22:30
emotions inside of them.
00:22:32
And that generates, as Sarah says that so beautifully, a sort
00:22:37
of kinship with strangers.
00:22:40
Nathan C: That feeling of kinship is often today.
00:22:44
So infrequent that I am always impressed how impactful just a
00:22:52
little bit of positive connection with strangers or
00:22:56
with others in your community, can be.
00:23:00
I think it is something that people really, you know, really
00:23:03
value and appreciate.
00:23:05
Sarah Ticho: Hmm.
00:23:06
Nathan C: So Sarah, one of the things that I have just.
00:23:09
loved seeing in the journey that SoulPanks has had has been how
00:23:15
public and open you have been about prototyping, about
00:23:21
testing, about getting user feedback from things.
00:23:25
and I know, you have these strong relationships to the
00:23:28
national healthcare system and the sort of clinical needs, to
00:23:32
document and measure.
00:23:33
Could you talk about, how your approach to user testing and
00:23:39
feedback along this journey has maybe changed or impacted how
00:23:43
you thought about the project or even choices that you've made
00:23:46
along the way?
00:23:47
Sarah Ticho: Oh, what a lovely question that I don't know how
00:23:50
to explain succinctly, but it is just such A fascinating area of
00:23:57
research of how we represent the body, how we visualise feelings
00:24:04
that to do it in a silo would just be so, like, irresponsible.
00:24:12
I think it's been so fascinating the process of just being like,
00:24:15
how would someone use this?
00:24:16
Where would you use it?
00:24:18
Even, like, would you use this for showing a doctor how you
00:24:22
feel?
00:24:23
Would you use this as a public engagement tool to have a
00:24:26
conversation with people as part of an art installation?
00:24:29
Do we use this as, a form of research?
00:24:31
And so that's been a really big part of the process, but I
00:24:34
think, like, over the years we've had co design groups where
00:24:37
we've done body mapping workshops with people and also
00:24:41
worked with concept artists to think about like, how do you
00:24:43
even translate this concept and create brushes for example, like
00:24:47
what, how do you even select what sort of brushes you would
00:24:50
use to visualize like the full spectrum of feeling?
00:24:54
And I think one of the questions that we've also been asking
00:24:57
internally is like, how many do we make?
00:24:58
How do you make it so that you're not overwhelmed with
00:25:02
options?
00:25:03
But also that you have enough that you can freely, like,
00:25:06
express yourself was a really big challenge, as well as all
00:25:10
the kind of UI and functionality.
00:25:12
we even, like, represent the body in VR.
00:25:14
If you have this body as a canvas, like, Like like when I
00:25:19
was first starting them, we were, I was trying to find, you
00:25:21
know, OBJ files online and it was like hypersexualized women
00:25:26
or like really like muscular men.
00:25:28
And it's just like, it's not, it's not that binary option.
00:25:33
And so throughout the process, we did a lot of user testing.
00:25:38
We did a big kind of research pilot in a library.
00:25:42
In Maidenhead, where we were looking at how it could be used
00:25:45
as like a tool for social prescribing, so engaging the
00:25:47
public in conversations about the embodiment of emotion and
00:25:51
feeling, but also thinking about how, if people are in a, in the
00:25:54
system already, that they could be referred as a tool to improve
00:25:57
their well being.
00:25:59
And so we did lots of testing within that of like, What
00:26:01
happens if you have different sized bodies, like, is that
00:26:05
valuable to people?
00:26:06
And we found absolutely not, because it was horrible and
00:26:09
you're kind of assessing how large or small you perceive
00:26:12
yourself.
00:26:14
So that felt like a big moment of like, okay, no, we're not
00:26:17
going to do it like that.
00:26:19
And so Niki and I spent hours talking about just how you even
00:26:22
represent the body in VR.
00:26:25
And that's how we ended up, landing on this quite ethereal,
00:26:29
body where it's almost made out of smoke and it's kind of never
00:26:33
meant to be a consistent, solid thing.
00:26:36
It still has like more work to be done, but I think that kind
00:26:39
of testing with people was, So valuable.
00:26:44
And I think, you know, I'd heard about the importance of user
00:26:46
testing, but like, technically, this is really like the first VR
00:26:49
project I've ever been involved from the beginning.
00:26:51
And I've just learned so much about what feedback you take
00:26:55
from people that you constantly need to show people and see all
00:26:59
the different kind of bugs and challenges.
00:27:02
I think another thing we also found really early on is that
00:27:04
people don't draw just inside the body.
00:27:08
The emotions and feelings are something that actually people
00:27:12
feel around themselves.
00:27:14
Like, when you're feeling super overwhelmed, like, so many
00:27:17
people would do, like, smoke and, like, static and all sorts
00:27:22
of things.
00:27:23
Or, you know, of course, so many emotions are also relational.
00:27:26
When you think about love, it's not just, like, you experiencing
00:27:28
that, but it's, like, between you and somebody else and so we
00:27:32
knew that we wanted to continue to develop it in a way that
00:27:36
people could draw outside the body but a big part of soul
00:27:40
paint is that you get to re embody your, your drawing and
00:27:44
you get to see yourself in the mirror wearing what you've
00:27:46
created and so there are also a lot of technical challenges of
00:27:50
like how do you attach Those, pieces to the body in a way that
00:27:56
we can rig it as well.
00:27:58
There were so many different aspects of the development where
00:28:01
it's like, how do we represent human experience?
00:28:03
How do we get the right people consulting on it?
00:28:05
Like, how do we like land on those particular options, but
00:28:08
also from like a game design perspective, how do you onboard
00:28:12
people in a way that, you know, 94-year-old Ethel can try it in
00:28:16
a library and still understand all of those interaction
00:28:19
mechanisms, and feel like they've created something well
00:28:24
engaged in, in a really complex topic that they've been able to
00:28:27
understand in a really short period of time and feel like
00:28:31
they've been able to represent their experience So.
00:28:35
a really long journey and I think that also the kind of
00:28:38
testing that we've done and even like technically the finished
00:28:41
product of what we've created now is also like a vertical
00:28:45
slice and it was like through the process of now showing it at
00:28:47
festivals that we continue to get more feedback as well that
00:28:52
people say, I want to use this every day.
00:28:54
I want to turn this into a journaling experience where I
00:28:56
can create, a museum of all my stories and experiences.
00:29:01
or I want to use this in a kind of therapeutic setting to show
00:29:03
my doctor.
00:29:04
And so we're continuing to take all that feedback on board to
00:29:08
also inform the next stages of what we do, because there are
00:29:12
pillars to how we want to apply it because it is such a broad
00:29:17
tool in many ways.
00:29:19
But I think that's really informed.
00:29:21
Our kind of plans to develop it into an at home journaling
00:29:24
experience, how we could make it social as well, so you can share
00:29:28
your artworks with your friends, do you share those artworks
00:29:32
outside of the headset as well and make it more publicly
00:29:35
accessible, so we're continuing to collaborate with, you know, A
00:29:40
range of different sort of organizations and institutions
00:29:43
to think about what that development journey looks like,
00:29:47
as well as continuing to have our like researchers embedded in
00:29:51
the team so that we're still framing it from a, with with
00:29:55
kind psychological principles of what inspired the piece and how
00:30:00
that can improve well being and health in a way that feels
00:30:03
informed.
00:30:04
Niki: Yeah and funnily enough to add to that, working together
00:30:08
with other institutions and the ambitions that we have now, most
00:30:11
of the time translates to making that infrastructure ourselves.
00:30:17
Because everybody that we talk with agrees, yes, I would love
00:30:22
this in my practice, or my patients would love this, or I
00:30:24
would love to use this myself, but the infrastructure to get
00:30:29
this into the right places with the right support, or even with
00:30:32
the right funding, just are not there.
00:30:36
So what we're doing A lot of the times is not being like
00:30:40
producing our own project or being really creative.
00:30:43
Now, strangely enough, most of the time we are laying the
00:30:47
groundwork of a greater infrastructure or just educating
00:30:51
older, institutions that have no idea and just being, being, They
00:30:56
advocate not only for our own project, but just for this new
00:31:00
wave of working of science and art coming together for mental
00:31:03
well being.
00:31:04
which is fun, but also there's a bandwidth to how much you can do
00:31:09
by yourself.
00:31:11
The, Niki, this idea that, right, even when you have a
00:31:15
customer base that's ready for it, even when you've seen that,
00:31:20
like, people engage with it, that sometimes the ecosystem, In
00:31:26
the US, and this is purely hypothetical, like the
00:31:29
electronic health record system and just the way that patients
00:31:34
and doctors communicate is so incredibly challenging that
00:31:38
trying to integrate anything into that is like multi hundreds
00:31:44
of thousands, millions of dollars, consultant job, right?
00:31:47
so often, there are these component pieces that enable
00:31:51
access, that enable scale, that enable cost, reductions for
00:31:55
ideas to really make it.
00:31:57
they're not in, the control of the founders or the people with
00:32:00
the great ideas.
00:32:01
And so, you have to make those choices about do we build it?
00:32:06
Do we wait?
00:32:07
You know, do we pick a different path?
00:32:09
you know, is there a channel that we scale back to while we
00:32:11
wait?
00:32:12
and, you know, you see it going on with AR glasses and headsets
00:32:16
all the time.
00:32:16
but it's, you know, we don't often think about it in terms of
00:32:20
maybe like mobile apps or games or things, but it, it's always
00:32:24
there.
00:32:24
So many technologies have professional services arms for
00:32:29
that exact reason.
00:32:30
So I usually ask, but you already answered, you know,
00:32:34
about this, this glow up view of where, SoulPaint is going.
00:32:38
I mean, I heard, you know, continuing to build into new
00:32:40
markets.
00:32:41
I heard, you know, exploring these applications and values.
00:32:44
So let's just take it like a whole nother step forward and
00:32:49
how do you measure the impact of this work?
00:32:53
And how will you know?
00:32:56
That you made it.
00:32:57
How will you know that your vision has come to bear?
00:33:00
Shake it, Sarah.
00:33:03
Sarah Ticho: how do we measure impact?
00:33:05
Oh, juicy question.
00:33:08
I mean, working of scientists, that is always such an
00:33:11
interesting question, right?
00:33:13
Because, we are working towards more rigorous research where we
00:33:16
can demonstrate, this can have a positive impact on people's well
00:33:21
being because, our theory is the more that you use it, that you
00:33:26
have like a deeper understanding of the connection between
00:33:30
emotions and feelings in your body.
00:33:32
but I think I already feel like we've had that impact because I
00:33:35
think it's just shining a light on this, Strange, bizarre
00:33:39
concepts that I think everyone can relate to, that is, that we
00:33:42
all have this hidden world of feeling, and that we have
00:33:45
created this extremely extravagant way that you can
00:33:48
visualize that we can use art making to express feelings in
00:33:52
the body.
00:33:54
But I think like, there is the impact in terms of, seeing it
00:33:57
actually applied in the world.
00:33:59
And I think that's why we really are pushing for more, public
00:34:02
engagement exhibitions, like we want to create like giant
00:34:06
installations where it's not just about the VR but creating
00:34:09
like a physical terracotta army of emotions where we could take
00:34:13
over public squares and it could be about grief or love or, what
00:34:19
the first day of, you know, school feels like as a way of
00:34:24
having these big conversations about experience.
00:34:27
But I think another area that I've always been interested in
00:34:30
as a sort of anthropologist by training is like, what can we
00:34:33
learn from it?
00:34:35
Like, how can we discover new ways to that people really, how
00:34:38
language and culture informs the way that we talk about our
00:34:41
bodies.
00:34:41
What sort of kind of fascinating data could we gather from this
00:34:46
that could tell us something about the human experience
00:34:48
that's been hard to research before?
00:34:52
But also just in a very pragmatic way, like going back
00:34:54
to the origin story of this, like the impact of a patient in
00:34:59
a doctor's office asking for help and not having the words to
00:35:03
describe their experience?
00:35:04
Does it help someone communicate their experience, like, in a way
00:35:10
that can really facilitate this conversation or, help a doctor
00:35:15
understand them faster and more accurately?
00:35:18
I think, there's multiple layers to it.
00:35:21
And I think we can already see the impact of it.
00:35:25
It's just about finding the best places to implement it in a
00:35:28
world where the distribution of VR is still so fragmented.
00:35:32
and finding that kind of positioning way as a company,
00:35:36
that it's sustainable to do that.
00:35:39
but also is really in line with our values of making sure that
00:35:43
people can access this.
00:35:45
So we're also asking ourselves questions like, is this actually
00:35:48
impactful as a, sensory educational tool in schools as
00:35:52
well?
00:35:53
How can we use this as a way of talking to young people or
00:35:56
neurodivergent people that may struggle to connect with
00:35:59
emotions and develop a curriculum around it?
00:36:02
There's so many different paths where we can see it being
00:36:05
impactful and I think we do measure a lot of that through
00:36:08
the researchers that we work with, but also through expanding
00:36:12
it into these different avenues, I think we see a kind of a range
00:36:15
of impacts, a range of ways that it can be impactful.
00:36:23
there's so many different about who funds that, how do you
00:36:28
demonstrate a return on investment, and is that
00:36:31
financial or is it social impact?
00:36:35
I think that's the kind of journey that we're on at the
00:36:38
moment being like, what is, what is the low hanging fruit and
00:36:41
where can we like, expand to from there?
00:36:43
Niki: Yeah, I can take my A few on this question, into the
00:36:49
answer for the next question too, which is how we measure
00:36:54
impact is so closely linked to what kind of people or partners
00:37:00
are you looking for in the future?
00:37:02
If you just heard from Sarah's story, This tool is about, this
00:37:07
product, this artistic experience, is about
00:37:12
facilitating a new language to make it easy to talk.
00:37:17
about your own emotions and reflect upon your own emotions.
00:37:20
So that puts it at the nexus of a whole bunch of different
00:37:24
things we can use it for.
00:37:25
And that is our strength, but that is also definitely our
00:37:29
weakness because the infrastructure is not there.
00:37:32
Our time is finite.
00:37:33
We're just small.
00:37:35
is the champions on the other side of the fence to help us
00:37:38
decide, you know what, out of all of these paths, a social,
00:37:42
emotional education for youth versus, end of life sharing of
00:37:46
your stories versus, diagnostic tool.
00:37:50
at the end of the day, From a business perspective, we can
00:37:54
only do one of those things at once because we want to do it
00:37:57
well.
00:37:58
And science, we do everything in, collaboration and in co
00:38:01
creation with our scientists.
00:38:02
Science takes a while.
00:38:04
So for this to land in the world in a good way where, we do it
00:38:08
responsibly and nurturing, We need to network the
00:38:12
infrastructure that is there, the powers that be, the existing
00:38:15
institutions, the existing funding, the ways in this world
00:38:19
that make up the infrastructure, to also reach out to us and say
00:38:22
like, let's do this one first, here's an opening, we can get
00:38:25
traction here.
00:38:27
So, yeah, that's the people we're looking for.
00:38:29
Amazing.
00:38:30
Nathan C: Amazing.
00:38:32
Y'all are so in sync.
00:38:34
You're practically doing this podcast together.
00:38:36
I hope we don't make people feel like this is, the level of,
00:38:41
partnership and flow that happens with every co founder
00:38:45
because we're going to make some people jealous out there.
00:38:49
I have been fascinated, Sarah, with this idea of our digital
00:38:53
avatars and our digital identities and this idea of, our
00:38:59
metadata as people in a digital space.
00:39:03
And this idea, I've always tried to figure out, you know, when
00:39:06
we're talking about this.
00:39:07
Multiple immersive worlds, you know, how do you have
00:39:10
persistence of clothing or, of objects or all of your kit?
00:39:14
Where I've been interested is like, how do I just have like a
00:39:16
persistence of Nathan ness?
00:39:18
And this idea of like, potentially having my, emotional
00:39:24
and My wellbeing metadata as something that I could like wear
00:39:29
into the classroom or into different conversations.
00:39:33
And that people could just be like, wow, Nathan's a little TV
00:39:35
static today.
00:39:37
Or like, whoa, you know, there's an electric fire in Nathan's
00:39:40
stomach.
00:39:41
Like, I'm just mad about this idea that like your wellbeing
00:39:45
and your wellness data could be a communication tool that
00:39:50
digital.
00:39:51
Connections would enable NSF, just out of all the things you
00:39:54
said, I'm totally distracted with this.
00:39:57
So, Niki, thank you, for making that call out, to folks you're
00:40:00
looking to connect with.
00:40:02
I guess a question to the both of you.
00:40:04
we love to make time, and platform to share a bit of
00:40:08
community spotlight.
00:40:09
Is there a group that you work with or a nonprofit community
00:40:13
that you wanted to, give a little bit of a shout out or
00:40:16
spotlight to, in our time today?
00:40:18
Sarah Ticho: I like the idea of a shoutlight.
00:40:20
That's a whole new project waiting to happen.
00:40:22
man.
00:40:23
Oh, I love it.
00:40:24
It's just like, where to even begin?
00:40:26
I think Mafjay Alvarez is an incredible game designer,
00:40:30
artist, who works with, another artist and researcher called
00:40:34
Camille Baker.
00:40:35
called Mamrie Mountain, that's kind of interviewing, Women with
00:40:39
like lived experience of kind of going through chemotherapy, I
00:40:43
think what they do is amazing, Thomas Buckley is also like an
00:40:47
incredible multi sensory artist that can just like make magic on
00:40:51
a shoestring, and really is like pushing that field of, you know,
00:40:55
what does smell feel like in VR, and taste, and touch, and just
00:41:01
Speaks to this kind of poetry that I just love.
00:41:06
Niki: I would, definitely have a shout out for GEMLAB, which
00:41:10
stands for Games for Emotional and Mental Health, G E M H,
00:41:15
which is a scientist run lab where they not only do research
00:41:24
on existing entertainment games and start that dialogue but also
00:41:30
talk about what's healthy about these games.
00:41:33
but also put out lists, you know, just for parents to go
00:41:36
like, you know, these kind of games are games that would be
00:41:40
nurturing for your kids, etc, etc.
00:41:42
So there, it's I mean, they're amazing because they are, you
00:41:48
know, it's all behavioral scientists, some psychologists,
00:41:51
and etc, that's what they're, that's their team, but at the
00:41:54
same time, they're young, they speak the language, of today to
00:41:59
make it, less science y and more just, Normal everyday lives.
00:42:03
So it makes that needed bridge between, science and our daily
00:42:08
lives, As an advocate for games to be melthy, healthy and good
00:42:12
for your emotional and, I suspect, there's a few
00:42:15
generations, out there who would really appreciate that mission.
00:42:19
Thank you both for both of those.
00:42:21
we have, I've had such a good time with you both today.
00:42:24
what's a way that people can follow up?
00:42:26
They can learn more.
00:42:27
How do people connect with you if, they have an idea or want to
00:42:32
host, an activation of,
00:42:34
Sarah Ticho: our website is Soul paint.co.
00:42:36
you can email us at hello@soulpaint.co.
00:42:40
Or Nick and I available over LinkedIn, Sarah tko and Niki
00:42:46
Smit, and Instagram and all the other platforms, some of the
00:42:51
other platforms.
00:42:52
Increasingly less platforms, but you can us.
00:42:55
Niki: we're nice and active on Instagram.
00:42:58
but yeah, give us a shout by mail, or hit us up on LinkedIn
00:43:03
for business questions and hit us up for weird artsy stuff on
00:43:08
Instagram.
00:43:09
Yeah.
00:43:11
Sarah Ticho: Is the SoulPaint experience available publicly or
00:43:16
is it just, through targeted activations at this point?
00:43:19
yeah, at the moment then we're doing a little festival world
00:43:22
tour.
00:43:23
So on our website it's got a list of all the different places
00:43:26
that we'll be showing SoulPaint at.
00:43:29
Some we can't announce yet, but, there will
00:43:32
Nathan C: Been very busy.
00:43:32
Sarah Ticho: yeah, we've got an exciting and intense, like,
00:43:36
month ahead of us.
00:43:37
Yeah, we are bracing, but also we are looking towards the idea
00:43:41
of having like, a proper touring experience as well, so if there
00:43:45
are any art spaces that are interested in showing, and
00:43:49
funding, that as well, then we're also very open to those
00:43:53
conversations.
00:43:55
Nathan C: Amazing.
00:43:57
Sarah Tico, Niki Smit, the partners and co creators behind
00:44:01
SoulPaint.
00:44:03
such an amazing conversation today.
00:44:05
weaving Game development, virtual reality, emotional
00:44:09
wellness, technology, and science, all into, a vision,
00:44:14
that's empowering people to be more connected to their bodies
00:44:18
and advocate, for themselves in the world.
00:44:20
I'm so inspired.
00:44:22
It's Monday.
00:44:22
This is going to be a great week if this is how it started.
00:44:25
Thank you so much for joining us on the Glow Up.
00:44:28
Niki: Thank you.
00:44:29
Sarah Ticho: Thank you for inviting us,
00:44:31
Nathan C: That's so good.
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