What is Impact Investing and Why You Should Consider Patenting Your Ideas (Michael Friebe)

[00:00:00] Dear listeners, welcome to Faces of Digital Health, a podcast about digital health and

[00:00:05] how healthcare systems around the world adopt technology.

[00:00:09] With me, Tjasa Zajc.

[00:00:20] One of the most common things said about healthcare sustainability is that we need to invest

[00:00:26] more in prevention.

[00:00:28] But it's really hard to design business models where you can't measure what you

[00:00:34] actually prevented.

[00:00:36] And this is why Michael Friebe says we should think about impact investing and looking into

[00:00:43] new ways of supporting innovation that supports prevention.

[00:00:49] Michael is an experienced innovator with over 80 patents and a professor in multiple countries.

[00:00:56] In this discussion, he discussed the concepts of innovation, why he filed for so many patents,

[00:01:04] should you invest in patents?

[00:01:07] He also talked about challenges in digital health funding and more.

[00:01:13] Enjoy the show, and if you haven't yet, make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever

[00:01:17] you listen to other shows as well.

[00:01:20] And if you haven't yet, check out our newsletter.

[00:01:23] You can find it at fodh.substack.com.

[00:01:29] The September 2024 edition talked about why countries struggle with healthcare digitalization

[00:01:37] and digital transformation.

[00:01:39] In the past, we covered should we give up on digital therapeutics, different aspects

[00:01:46] of country healthcare digitalizations and trends such as AI.

[00:01:51] So go to fodh.substack.com.

[00:01:55] That's fodh.substack.com.

[00:02:00] Now let's dive in.

[00:02:15] Michael, hi and thank you so much for joining me here for a discussion on Faces of Digital Health

[00:02:21] where we're going to focus on funding mechanisms, new opportunities, trends in digital health.

[00:02:29] You're an innovator, a founder, a CEO, you're a professor in Australia, Germany and Poland

[00:02:34] and I probably miss the country or two.

[00:02:36] So plenty of knowledge in the industry.

[00:02:39] You also have over 80 patents for digital health and authors over 200 papers.

[00:02:48] So let's start with that.

[00:02:49] Why do you have 80 patents?

[00:02:51] Who needs 80 patents?

[00:02:53] It's a very good question.

[00:02:54] It's one of the things I talk to my students always, it's like what is innovation, right?

[00:02:58] And then for example, is a patent innovation?

[00:03:01] And a patent is not innovation.

[00:03:03] It's innovation is only when an invention, which is the patent, actually makes it

[00:03:07] to the customer, to the patient for example.

[00:03:10] So if you have that translation in process, most of the times and I'm going back to the

[00:03:15] question, you don't know whether something will be successful or whether something will

[00:03:20] be translatable and will ever make it to the patient.

[00:03:24] But if you don't do that process of securing the technology beforehand, it might be too

[00:03:29] late.

[00:03:29] So that's why I probably do too many patent applications and a lot of them will

[00:03:34] never ever make it to become innovation because they will never have that translation process.

[00:03:39] But I decide at the early stage, it's actually interesting to think about what could the

[00:03:45] vision of that idea be and that's what I put in the patents.

[00:03:48] At the end of the day, if I really use my definition of what I just said at the

[00:03:53] beginning, innovation equals invention times commercialization or towards translation,

[00:03:58] I would say out of the 80 patents is maybe only five actually made it.

[00:04:02] Are we only five are innovative?

[00:04:03] The rest is still sitting around, but maybe it will be something for the future.

[00:04:08] Who knows?

[00:04:09] Were you the one that further developed the idea for those patents to actually become

[00:04:14] products or was someone else?

[00:04:16] The thing that I'm trying to get to is as a startup or as someone working in tech,

[00:04:22] you might be worried that something that you're making has already been designed

[00:04:29] by someone else.

[00:04:30] So how do people actually check if what they're working on hasn't been patented

[00:04:34] yet? What's your advice in that sense and how do you check that what you

[00:04:39] patented isn't already used?

[00:04:41] First of all, it's very difficult to check because what happens with patents is

[00:04:46] when you file a patent application with a patent office, it has to be kept

[00:04:51] secret for 18 months.

[00:04:52] So it's not published.

[00:04:54] Nobody knows about it.

[00:04:55] That's like the advantage the inventor has is 18 months before anybody

[00:04:59] knows what you patent.

[00:05:01] So assuming I patent something on January 1st and you patented on January

[00:05:06] 2nd, we will find out in the middle of 2025 what we patented and who was

[00:05:13] the first to patent.

[00:05:14] So it's unknown.

[00:05:15] So even if you check all the patent databases, you will not find it

[00:05:19] because it's so simply locked.

[00:05:20] It's not available.

[00:05:22] And so you can't really do a patent check or a technology check on

[00:05:26] the last 18 months.

[00:05:28] You only can do it before that.

[00:05:30] So whatever is older than 18 months can be checked as public databases

[00:05:34] available.

[00:05:35] There are so many nuances on what is patented or not.

[00:05:38] You have to really go dive into it and that's what they sometimes

[00:05:41] call is like this freedom to operate.

[00:05:44] I don't know if you've ever heard of that word.

[00:05:46] It's this wording.

[00:05:47] It's venture capitalist sometimes asks, can you show me that you

[00:05:51] have a freedom to operate?

[00:05:52] That basically means, can you show me that there is nobody else

[00:05:56] that has a patent on what you want to do?

[00:05:58] It's basically impossible to do.

[00:06:01] To answer also the question you just asked is like, I don't

[00:06:04] typically check on whether something has been patented because

[00:06:08] I will find the new stuff.

[00:06:10] I will not find anyway.

[00:06:11] And the older stuff is typically known.

[00:06:13] I can circumvent it to a certain extent.

[00:06:16] I just file a patent and see what the patent office answers.

[00:06:20] Whenever you file something, then the patent office will

[00:06:22] actually do a review on it and will give you a report

[00:06:25] and say it's patentable or not.

[00:06:27] Or this is maybe patentable, this not.

[00:06:30] And I just wait for the patent report and then I'll see

[00:06:32] what can be done or cannot be done.

[00:06:35] So is it patenting ideas?

[00:06:38] Is that sort of an investment strategy for you?

[00:06:43] To a certain extent it is because it's not that I ever

[00:06:46] believe that I can money with the patents, but it gives you

[00:06:48] a certain focus and it gives you something I really would like

[00:06:51] to do something in that space.

[00:06:53] And I would like to do maybe that and maybe I've already

[00:06:55] built a prototype of where to do more.

[00:06:57] But I very often keep them a little bit in my back pocket

[00:07:01] and I said, by the way, we could actually do something

[00:07:03] really cool using this patent, maybe combined with this

[00:07:06] technology.

[00:07:07] And that's also something that happens later on.

[00:07:09] Is that you find out that one technology may not be

[00:07:13] important or not valuable.

[00:07:14] But if you combine it with other maybe already existing

[00:07:17] things, then it may be really cool to do.

[00:07:19] And so that's why this patent portfolio that I have

[00:07:22] a little bit is quite valuable to me.

[00:07:25] It may not be valuable to other people and it is very

[00:07:27] often or often used as a start as the beginning of a startup.

[00:07:34] Why?

[00:07:34] Because investors very often says, do you have any

[00:07:36] technology that is protective?

[00:07:38] And then you say, yeah, we do.

[00:07:40] Actually, as a matter of fact, we do.

[00:07:41] We have a patent here.

[00:07:42] Now, very likely you never you don't do what you

[00:07:47] have described in your patent later on.

[00:07:49] You do something else or you find out that was not

[00:07:51] such a good idea after all.

[00:07:53] You do something else, but it's a starting point.

[00:07:55] And so I don't see so much of a commercial value

[00:07:58] on these patents, but I see it's more like an

[00:08:01] intellectual starting point.

[00:08:03] And it's something where you have a little bit

[00:08:05] of an asset and something I have something to prove

[00:08:08] is already somehow protected.

[00:08:10] And that gives the investors a good feeling

[00:08:13] and it gives mainly the startup guys a good feeling.

[00:08:15] We already have something that we can build upon.

[00:08:18] So it's maybe more mental than anything.

[00:08:21] How difficult is it to file a patent?

[00:08:24] Like how much work does it require?

[00:08:25] How much pain and time?

[00:08:27] Also, that is a very good question because I don't

[00:08:29] not necessarily have a really good answer for that.

[00:08:31] If I give you a story, the story was I was at

[00:08:35] the chancellor of my university and the chancellor

[00:08:38] said to me, Mr. Fribi, you're filing too many patents.

[00:08:42] And I said, is that a problem?

[00:08:44] And he said, yes, it is a problem because we

[00:08:47] don't have enough money to file for the patents.

[00:08:49] You know, we have to be selective.

[00:08:51] So why don't you tell us which one are the good

[00:08:55] patents and which one are the bad patents?

[00:08:57] And I said, I have no idea which are the good

[00:09:00] patents and bad patents because the only way to

[00:09:02] find out, remember innovation equals invention

[00:09:05] times commercialization when we make it and we

[00:09:08] find a market for it, then it's innovative and

[00:09:10] then it has a value before that is merely an

[00:09:12] invention. I have no idea.

[00:09:13] I don't know.

[00:09:14] So going back to the question is I don't know

[00:09:17] how much money you should invest and how much time

[00:09:20] you should invest in a patent.

[00:09:22] Typically, the first patent is I also said that

[00:09:25] before is not necessarily the best one.

[00:09:27] It's a starting point.

[00:09:28] Whenever you start doing something, you will

[00:09:30] find out new technologies and you probably

[00:09:32] have to file new patents for that.

[00:09:34] But again, the first one was a starting point.

[00:09:37] I do with the emergence of all these large

[00:09:41] language models, I do quite a bit of my

[00:09:43] patents myself these days.

[00:09:44] And I actually have chat GPT or something else

[00:09:47] helped me write the claims.

[00:09:49] Before that, I had to hire a patent attorney

[00:09:52] and pay them a lot of money and which also

[00:09:55] means you have to come up with money up

[00:09:57] front now.

[00:09:58] The German patent application just to stay

[00:10:00] with them is a 60 euro investment.

[00:10:03] So it doesn't cost very much is 60 euros for

[00:10:06] 10 claims and you can just do right it

[00:10:09] yourself. You don't have to be a patent

[00:10:11] attorney to file for a patent.

[00:10:12] Everybody can do that.

[00:10:14] So these days with a good idea that I

[00:10:16] have and something out formulated out,

[00:10:18] it probably takes me a day to do that.

[00:10:21] I would say.

[00:10:22] OK, so that's not too big of a time issue.

[00:10:25] But I'm not saying I saw what we didn't

[00:10:27] are what you didn't ask.

[00:10:28] And what I didn't say is whether I believe

[00:10:29] that's a good pattern.

[00:10:30] Probably not.

[00:10:31] But it is at least something formulated

[00:10:33] and it's something put forward and it gives

[00:10:36] me some form of protection.

[00:10:37] It gives me some form of, I would say

[00:10:39] this look, I have already patented that

[00:10:42] and typically people don't look too

[00:10:44] intensively in that initially.

[00:10:45] And for the first 18 months is locked

[00:10:47] anywhere as I said before.

[00:10:49] So for me, it's just a starting point.

[00:10:52] But I'm not saying that is good what I'm doing.

[00:10:53] I'm just saying I filed the patent.

[00:10:56] We want to focus today on investments

[00:10:59] in healthcare.

[00:11:01] You recently wrote a paper for a new

[00:11:05] investment fund.

[00:11:07] And before we go into that, let's

[00:11:10] just take a look at the current

[00:11:11] situation in terms of funding.

[00:11:13] The latest rock health report for the

[00:11:16] first half of 2024 showed that the

[00:11:19] digital health startups raised 5.7

[00:11:22] billion across 266 deals.

[00:11:25] Rock health, I think only focuses on

[00:11:26] the US market.

[00:11:27] That's something worth emphasizing.

[00:11:29] But the point is that if this pattern

[00:11:31] continues, the funding this year could

[00:11:34] exceed funding in 2019 and 2023

[00:11:37] and totals because this is the two

[00:11:41] years that we're now comparing

[00:11:43] trends with it seems that 2020

[00:11:47] till 2022 is the period that we're

[00:11:50] excluding from the comparisons of

[00:11:52] funding because a covid really

[00:11:54] spiked investments.

[00:11:56] So how do you observe the current

[00:11:59] state of digital health funding?

[00:12:02] It's more difficult than it was

[00:12:03] two years ago.

[00:12:04] What does that signify to you?

[00:12:07] And where do you like, where does

[00:12:09] your thought about the need for new

[00:12:12] investment approaches come from?

[00:12:14] First of all, I think the definition

[00:12:15] of digital health is needs to be.

[00:12:17] We need to be more clear on what we

[00:12:19] mean by that.

[00:12:20] Is it just something where you look

[00:12:21] at an app and the app does

[00:12:22] something and gives me some advice?

[00:12:24] Is that digital health?

[00:12:25] Yeah, probably.

[00:12:26] Is a digital health component

[00:12:28] something which makes workflows

[00:12:29] more efficient?

[00:12:31] So helps basically with administration

[00:12:33] or is it something that combines

[00:12:34] basically artificial intelligence with

[00:12:36] new sensors with IoT devices

[00:12:38] to have a new package of maybe

[00:12:41] a new diagnostic tool,

[00:12:43] a new evaluation tool,

[00:12:44] a new support tool.

[00:12:46] I'm interested in the latter one,

[00:12:48] not in the first two ones,

[00:12:49] because the first two ones are

[00:12:50] basically not giving you

[00:12:52] new medicine.

[00:12:53] They give you a better traditional

[00:12:55] medicine.

[00:12:55] I don't know exactly who coined

[00:12:57] that term.

[00:12:57] It may even be in the

[00:12:58] Dallocraft or Peter Diamandis

[00:12:59] or one of these luminaries.

[00:13:02] But the point is that if we

[00:13:04] continue just using digital

[00:13:06] health to make the analog

[00:13:08] processes digital in health,

[00:13:11] then I'm personally not interested.

[00:13:13] It's something that has to happen,

[00:13:15] but it's really not helping

[00:13:17] the individual significantly.

[00:13:19] But if we use information

[00:13:22] that to create a new type

[00:13:24] of medicine, which is not

[00:13:25] doing what the human is doing

[00:13:27] right now by giving additional

[00:13:28] information, maybe even

[00:13:29] predictive information,

[00:13:31] preventive information

[00:13:32] helps you to actually be

[00:13:34] to get a personalized treatment

[00:13:36] and maybe even helps you to have

[00:13:37] a longer and more healthy life

[00:13:39] span or health span, then

[00:13:40] I think I'm very interested in that

[00:13:42] one. And so I think there will be

[00:13:44] lots of money being put into

[00:13:45] this model, despite the fact

[00:13:47] that there is no business model

[00:13:49] for it right now.

[00:13:50] The health insurances and every

[00:13:52] pretty much every health system

[00:13:53] that we have on this planet

[00:13:55] is waiting till you get sick.

[00:13:57] Then they do a diagnosis

[00:13:58] and then they do a really cool

[00:14:00] diagnosis, advanced diagnosis.

[00:14:02] And then they decide based on

[00:14:03] the diagnosis, what kind of

[00:14:04] treatment, what kind of therapy

[00:14:05] you have to undergo.

[00:14:07] And once you're healthy again

[00:14:08] or ready to be released, they kick

[00:14:10] you out. And I said, by the way,

[00:14:12] call back when you're sick again.

[00:14:13] Nobody takes care of the process

[00:14:15] before you get sick and nobody

[00:14:16] takes care of the process

[00:14:17] afterwards or not really

[00:14:19] intensively. There's no business

[00:14:20] model for it.

[00:14:22] So what we are still doing right

[00:14:23] now is we are trying to fill

[00:14:25] digital health and

[00:14:27] make it fit into the existing

[00:14:28] business model. And I don't think

[00:14:30] that is something we should

[00:14:31] continue and we need to really

[00:14:32] change in the future.

[00:14:34] I think everybody agrees on that.

[00:14:36] The discussions often revolve

[00:14:38] around the need for

[00:14:39] increased prevention.

[00:14:41] The challenge that we have is

[00:14:43] that a lot of prevention,

[00:14:44] especially related to wearables

[00:14:46] and digital technologies,

[00:14:48] is utilized by the worried

[00:14:50] well, the ones that

[00:14:51] people that actually have time

[00:14:53] to deal with their health.

[00:14:55] Many people don't deal

[00:14:56] with their health unless

[00:14:58] there's a health problem

[00:15:00] that arises.

[00:15:01] And oftentimes even with

[00:15:02] chronic patients, you don't

[00:15:05] after a while, you don't

[00:15:06] necessarily take things

[00:15:08] seriously until the pain

[00:15:10] is really strong.

[00:15:12] So I think that's a very

[00:15:13] interesting psychological

[00:15:15] component that we need to

[00:15:17] keep in mind when we talk about

[00:15:19] prevention and how can we do

[00:15:21] health care? Absolutely.

[00:15:22] This is what we have.

[00:15:23] We have you have mentioned that

[00:15:25] I started the fund, but the name

[00:15:26] of the fund is 5P and

[00:15:27] 5P Future of Health.

[00:15:29] And one of the P's stands

[00:15:30] for participation, for

[00:15:32] participative health.

[00:15:33] And if as long as you don't see

[00:15:35] a an advantage

[00:15:37] of using something or monitoring

[00:15:40] something or going forward, you

[00:15:42] likely won't do it.

[00:15:44] So one of the components that

[00:15:46] needs to be built in into

[00:15:47] these digital health tools is

[00:15:49] a dashboard or like a

[00:15:50] gamification interface where

[00:15:52] you just see if I do

[00:15:54] something, it will have

[00:15:55] following result.

[00:15:56] I did this for a while.

[00:15:58] Look at my values are getting

[00:16:00] better, whatever these values

[00:16:01] will be or are.

[00:16:02] So if you don't see a feedback

[00:16:04] loop that gives you a motivation

[00:16:06] to continue, you likely won't

[00:16:08] continue.

[00:16:09] And this is really a problem

[00:16:11] because at the end of the day

[00:16:13] we're still believed that

[00:16:14] health care has something to do

[00:16:15] with doctors and health care

[00:16:16] has something to do with

[00:16:17] hospitals and with pharmacies

[00:16:18] and with medication and whatever.

[00:16:20] No health has something to do

[00:16:21] with yourself and how you are

[00:16:23] actually treating yourself, how

[00:16:25] you're monitoring yourself,

[00:16:26] how you actually basically

[00:16:27] are exercising, how you're

[00:16:29] eating all these known factors.

[00:16:32] But all of this is

[00:16:33] which is part of health.

[00:16:35] Did you did you ever read the

[00:16:36] book from Peter Atia, the way

[00:16:38] basically talks about the two

[00:16:39] different components of health

[00:16:41] or the two components of death?

[00:16:43] It's very interesting because he

[00:16:44] says no, I didn't.

[00:16:46] I didn't really so you can go

[00:16:47] through the key concept.

[00:16:48] Yes, only two two two

[00:16:50] elements, which I think are

[00:16:51] very important. He says there's

[00:16:52] only there's two types of death

[00:16:54] and it's very sad to talk about

[00:16:55] death when you talk about

[00:16:56] health. But at the end of

[00:16:57] the day there is slow death

[00:16:58] and there's there is fast death.

[00:17:00] And the fast death has to do with

[00:17:01] the results of maybe having

[00:17:04] neglected slow death components

[00:17:06] beginning or you have an accident

[00:17:07] or or whatever, right?

[00:17:09] Or you have a stabbing wound

[00:17:10] or something like that.

[00:17:11] Medicine is very good at fixing

[00:17:13] that they're very good at

[00:17:14] repairing you threat of fast

[00:17:17] death. What they don't

[00:17:19] do is they don't take care

[00:17:20] of this accumulation effect

[00:17:22] that happens over 20 years or

[00:17:24] 30 years smoking

[00:17:26] lung diseases.

[00:17:27] We only treat them

[00:17:29] when they're close to the fast

[00:17:31] death component.

[00:17:32] So we have actually neglected

[00:17:34] that first part.

[00:17:35] And what's also interesting

[00:17:36] in our book is that longevity

[00:17:38] always talk about our longevity

[00:17:39] has gone up.

[00:17:41] If you really subtract from

[00:17:43] longevity child death

[00:17:45] and you subtract from longevity

[00:17:46] results, the infectious

[00:17:48] diseases that can be treated

[00:17:50] by antibiotics.

[00:17:51] If you take those off

[00:17:53] in the last hundred years

[00:17:54] basically nothing has happened

[00:17:55] or not much.

[00:17:57] Our medicine is good at fixing

[00:17:58] immediate problems, but not

[00:18:00] good at fixing long term

[00:18:02] effects that accumulate over

[00:18:03] time. And we need to just

[00:18:05] change our mindset on this one.

[00:18:07] I'm not sure how that is

[00:18:08] possible, but I'm just saying

[00:18:09] that is what I would like to

[00:18:10] do.

[00:18:11] And tell me more about

[00:18:12] this new investment fund.

[00:18:14] So how do you imagine that it

[00:18:16] would be different from the

[00:18:17] current investment funds?

[00:18:19] What's better or

[00:18:21] different in the approach?

[00:18:23] Yeah, I think

[00:18:25] we call it an impact fund

[00:18:27] impact because it will have a

[00:18:28] long term impact

[00:18:29] on humanity

[00:18:31] and a long term impact on your

[00:18:33] personal health.

[00:18:34] And what if you're an

[00:18:36] investor and I said I had

[00:18:38] this really cool idea,

[00:18:39] you will actually live

[00:18:41] a much healthier life in the

[00:18:42] future without this and this

[00:18:43] device.

[00:18:44] And everybody will say in the

[00:18:45] investment side, that's cool.

[00:18:46] I'd like to have that.

[00:18:47] By the way, how do you make

[00:18:49] money with this?

[00:18:50] And then you have the

[00:18:51] then you have the answer.

[00:18:52] We don't know there is no

[00:18:53] business model because

[00:18:54] prevention is not being paid

[00:18:56] for with the health insurance.

[00:18:57] Typically people have to

[00:18:58] invest themselves.

[00:18:59] It's only for the rich people

[00:19:00] and who can afford it.

[00:19:02] So there is no real business

[00:19:03] model.

[00:19:03] So maybe I'm not interested.

[00:19:05] There's a difference between

[00:19:06] the people are interested.

[00:19:08] Maybe the venture capitalists

[00:19:10] are not interested.

[00:19:11] So what we have to do now

[00:19:12] is we have to say every

[00:19:14] venture capitalist, every one

[00:19:15] of us is a human being and

[00:19:17] we want that.

[00:19:18] If we want that,

[00:19:19] there will be a business

[00:19:20] model.

[00:19:21] So how do business models

[00:19:22] develop?

[00:19:23] By having offerings, by having

[00:19:25] actually tools, devices,

[00:19:27] setups, workflows that

[00:19:29] that really help you achieve

[00:19:30] something that is beneficial.

[00:19:32] And then you are willing to pay

[00:19:33] for it.

[00:19:34] A lot of the a lot of people

[00:19:36] say a lot of politicians

[00:19:37] or they say there's enough

[00:19:39] money in the health care system.

[00:19:40] We just have to take a little

[00:19:41] bit from here and then push

[00:19:42] it over there.

[00:19:43] This will not work because

[00:19:45] then you will have exactly

[00:19:46] that problem that

[00:19:48] doctors will not be happy

[00:19:49] about that hospitals will not

[00:19:51] be happy about that.

[00:19:52] There will be this whole

[00:19:53] stakeholder setup where they

[00:19:55] will not allow you to do that.

[00:19:57] So I believe we need to build

[00:19:58] up something in parallel

[00:19:59] and maybe at the same time

[00:20:01] we need to build up.

[00:20:02] We need to think about

[00:20:03] and that's also something we

[00:20:04] don't very often do.

[00:20:06] We do.

[00:20:07] We need to think out who

[00:20:08] benefits the most at the

[00:20:10] moment from these kind of

[00:20:11] technologies.

[00:20:12] And is it really the American

[00:20:14] or the European or is it not

[00:20:16] maybe the African who has no

[00:20:18] health care or very little

[00:20:19] health care or no access to

[00:20:20] specialists?

[00:20:21] If you put them if you give

[00:20:23] them an inexpensive

[00:20:25] portable maybe a smartphone

[00:20:27] based setup that allows

[00:20:29] them to monitor their health

[00:20:30] without actually getting sick

[00:20:32] and then having to spend

[00:20:33] all the money they have to go

[00:20:35] to the doctor.

[00:20:36] I think you could prove a

[00:20:37] point maybe faster, quicker

[00:20:39] more efficiently.

[00:20:40] So I do believe we have to

[00:20:41] think a little bit more about

[00:20:42] this.

[00:20:43] The terminology is reverse

[00:20:44] innovation and democratization

[00:20:46] of health care.

[00:20:47] We need to think about these

[00:20:48] people as well.

[00:20:49] And maybe even more innovation

[00:20:51] will come from the results that

[00:20:53] we generate in low income

[00:20:55] nations rather than in the

[00:20:56] high income nations.

[00:20:58] So in a way this idea is

[00:21:01] that you invest in solutions

[00:21:03] that we all find meaningful

[00:21:05] for the improved health and

[00:21:08] figure out the actual funding

[00:21:10] and return on investment later.

[00:21:12] Subsequently, yeah, that's why

[00:21:13] we don't always necessarily

[00:21:15] ask right away about scale

[00:21:17] or where is the business model

[00:21:19] right now.

[00:21:19] We just say what could it be?

[00:21:21] And please don't think

[00:21:22] I'm based in Germany, right?

[00:21:24] So don't think about what

[00:21:24] the German health care model

[00:21:26] will say to that model.

[00:21:27] Think about what is there

[00:21:29] any country or any geography

[00:21:31] which would like that solution

[00:21:33] better than another one.

[00:21:34] And then you try to go for

[00:21:36] that one.

[00:21:36] So you don't always go

[00:21:38] necessarily by where is the

[00:21:40] money necessarily, but

[00:21:41] where is the need?

[00:21:42] And that is very difficult

[00:21:44] to convince investors to do

[00:21:45] that.

[00:21:45] So you need to have some form

[00:21:46] of social investors a little

[00:21:48] bit too.

[00:21:49] And we have I'm

[00:21:50] concerned that too.

[00:21:51] I'm using a methodology

[00:21:53] that's called Purpose Launchpad

[00:21:54] and they have created

[00:21:56] a purpose pyramid

[00:21:57] and the purpose pyramid

[00:21:59] with five P's.

[00:22:00] So we have five P future of health.

[00:22:01] They have a different five P

[00:22:02] starts with a product

[00:22:04] which has to create a profit

[00:22:06] which has to benefit people

[00:22:07] and the planet

[00:22:08] and it has to be driven by a

[00:22:09] purpose.

[00:22:10] So profit is not all the way

[00:22:12] on the top.

[00:22:12] It has to be there.

[00:22:14] Otherwise we cannot be

[00:22:15] sustainable with our general

[00:22:16] model.

[00:22:17] But it's not the most important

[00:22:19] thing.

[00:22:20] How does this idea differ

[00:22:22] from philanthropies or charity

[00:22:24] projects that basically don't

[00:22:26] have profit centered?

[00:22:28] Well, we're not a charity and

[00:22:29] we're not a philanthropy.

[00:22:30] We want to make money.

[00:22:32] It's not that I'm not saying

[00:22:34] that we do that just for the

[00:22:35] heck of it.

[00:22:36] Just burn money and just

[00:22:38] create ideas that we want

[00:22:39] to create products

[00:22:41] and services and that

[00:22:43] actually have a value and

[00:22:45] that are used and that are being

[00:22:46] put into the market.

[00:22:48] Now to stimulate that you need

[00:22:49] to make a profit on this one,

[00:22:51] but it's not the driving force.

[00:22:53] There's this I'm just

[00:22:55] repeating certain things that

[00:22:56] I mean that come from here,

[00:22:58] but you always have this

[00:22:59] triple sustainability, right?

[00:23:01] You need to be environmentally

[00:23:02] sustainable.

[00:23:03] You need to be socially

[00:23:04] sustainable and you need to be

[00:23:05] economically sustainable.

[00:23:07] So we need to make a profit

[00:23:08] on this one, but we need to

[00:23:09] make sure that it's not

[00:23:11] going one direction and just

[00:23:13] helping one one very

[00:23:15] selective population part,

[00:23:16] but it really has a social

[00:23:18] component to it.

[00:23:20] That I thought I to my

[00:23:21] American friends, I'm a

[00:23:22] capitalist.

[00:23:23] I like the general concept,

[00:23:25] but I like actually social

[00:23:26] capitalism.

[00:23:27] If that is a word that actually

[00:23:29] exists, but I like that idea

[00:23:30] a lot that you benefit people

[00:23:32] not only benefit individuals.

[00:23:33] So they have deep pockets

[00:23:36] at the end of the day.

[00:23:37] So how do you go after

[00:23:38] investors for the fund?

[00:23:40] Because sometimes I guess we

[00:23:42] don't realize enough that

[00:23:44] investors are actually

[00:23:46] like startup founders as well,

[00:23:48] because investors also need to

[00:23:50] fundraise for the fund.

[00:23:51] So who do you target when

[00:23:53] you're now from the from the

[00:23:55] side of the people that give

[00:23:56] me money or yeah,

[00:23:57] yeah, for the investment fund.

[00:23:58] Yeah, it's not simple right

[00:24:00] now because at the end of the

[00:24:01] day, whenever you made

[00:24:04] some money, the most important

[00:24:05] thing of the people that have

[00:24:06] made some money is to keep

[00:24:08] that money and to make more out

[00:24:10] of it, but not to give it

[00:24:11] away. Right?

[00:24:12] The American attitude

[00:24:15] is a little different on that

[00:24:16] one. There is if you made a lot

[00:24:17] of money, you also will need to

[00:24:19] give a lot away.

[00:24:20] But the best part is, of course,

[00:24:22] if you combine, you know,

[00:24:24] creating an impact and a social

[00:24:25] impact combined with a

[00:24:27] with an economic impact.

[00:24:28] So you have to tell them,

[00:24:30] by the way, we, you know,

[00:24:31] we really would like to do

[00:24:32] something that is needed,

[00:24:33] that is wanted, that we all

[00:24:35] are thriving for.

[00:24:37] And yes, there's no business

[00:24:38] model, but we all believe

[00:24:39] there will be one because

[00:24:40] at the end of the day, that's

[00:24:42] what we want. And we have to just

[00:24:43] think a little bit disruptive

[00:24:45] and maybe I'll just put

[00:24:47] a throw in a little definition

[00:24:48] of disruption because most people

[00:24:50] use that word a little

[00:24:51] inflationary as well.

[00:24:53] This is disrupted.

[00:24:54] This is disrupted disruption.

[00:24:55] It is always when people have no

[00:24:57] idea what the future business

[00:24:59] model will look like.

[00:25:00] So it's disruptive.

[00:25:02] So it's something new or

[00:25:03] something, but it needs to

[00:25:05] create a new business model that

[00:25:06] makes an old business model

[00:25:08] obsolete.

[00:25:09] And there's a lot of potential

[00:25:10] technologies out there, but

[00:25:12] people are just simply not

[00:25:13] investing in those because

[00:25:15] they're afraid of new business

[00:25:16] models. They simply don't know

[00:25:17] what they will look like.

[00:25:19] And you have to just basically

[00:25:20] tell them that and this is

[00:25:22] a threat that is not against

[00:25:24] the country, but more

[00:25:25] against the mentality.

[00:25:26] If we don't do it,

[00:25:27] somebody else will do it.

[00:25:28] And I'm sure that I see

[00:25:29] what the Chinese do in Africa

[00:25:31] and how they invest in

[00:25:32] Africa and what they actually

[00:25:33] do. And they are

[00:25:36] understanding that you need

[00:25:37] to create inexpensive, valuable

[00:25:40] tools rather than having

[00:25:41] something that is scarce.

[00:25:43] A one million euro or dollar

[00:25:45] MRI is scarce.

[00:25:47] Not everybody can afford it.

[00:25:48] A ten thousand euro or

[00:25:50] dollar MRI is a little bit

[00:25:52] more abundant so everybody

[00:25:53] can afford it.

[00:25:55] And that's a different

[00:25:56] thinking process because it's

[00:25:57] a different business model

[00:25:58] attached to it.

[00:26:00] Are there any examples of

[00:26:03] technologies, approaches,

[00:26:04] programs that inspired you

[00:26:08] or that you see as good

[00:26:10] examples of what you're trying

[00:26:11] to achieve?

[00:26:14] In general, everything

[00:26:15] this is I'm not

[00:26:17] I'm not a even though I like

[00:26:19] this word longevity.

[00:26:20] I'm not a big fan of this

[00:26:22] terminology at the moment

[00:26:23] because I really do believe

[00:26:25] that living a really

[00:26:26] healthy life very long

[00:26:28] is the goal.

[00:26:29] And what inspires me to

[00:26:31] actually go into this field

[00:26:32] and into this segment

[00:26:34] is that we are not

[00:26:35] actually focusing on that at all.

[00:26:38] And I have to say in my earlier

[00:26:39] career, I was focusing more

[00:26:41] on where is the business model

[00:26:43] rather than where is the impact?

[00:26:44] So I'd like to create something

[00:26:46] where I take health a step

[00:26:48] before I move it forward.

[00:26:50] And there's a lot of a lot of new

[00:26:52] tools out there where you have

[00:26:54] sensor. Look at my ring, right?

[00:26:55] The aura, you may have one too,

[00:26:57] right? This is for me actually

[00:26:58] the greatest starting point

[00:27:00] of actually managing your own

[00:27:02] health a little better and looking

[00:27:04] at long term effect.

[00:27:06] That's what I said before with the

[00:27:07] slow death and the fast death.

[00:27:09] Whatever comes to you

[00:27:11] typically comes in small increments

[00:27:13] and small increments you will not

[00:27:15] realize.

[00:27:16] You if your heartbeat goes up from

[00:27:18] 52 to 53 over one year,

[00:27:19] you will not realize that.

[00:27:21] But if that consistently goes up,

[00:27:23] there is something going on

[00:27:24] that that that causes

[00:27:25] an effect. So data

[00:27:28] avail data availability is

[00:27:30] actually, I think the thriving

[00:27:32] component of new innovations

[00:27:34] in the future. And that's why we need

[00:27:36] to collect data very early.

[00:27:38] And then we always have to deal

[00:27:39] with people who are cyber security,

[00:27:41] safe and protection

[00:27:43] and ethical standards.

[00:27:45] And yes, we need to look at that,

[00:27:47] but you need to look at what is

[00:27:49] the value of data and what's the

[00:27:51] value of collection of data earlier

[00:27:53] on. And I think that's what we

[00:27:54] need to focus on.

[00:27:55] That's why there's lots of set

[00:27:57] ups already out there which does

[00:27:59] the hood who do that.

[00:28:00] Now we need to just combine.

[00:28:01] And there's two little islands out

[00:28:03] there. And we need to combine them

[00:28:05] to really have a health platform.

[00:28:07] And I guess one other thing that

[00:28:08] really excited me is in

[00:28:11] 2006,

[00:28:12] the German government decided to

[00:28:14] to start an electrolytic

[00:28:16] patient record.

[00:28:17] We have 2024.

[00:28:19] We still don't have it.

[00:28:20] But at the time, it was just

[00:28:21] such a cool idea that you are

[00:28:23] having all the data at one

[00:28:25] point, you can collect them to

[00:28:27] maybe combine them.

[00:28:28] You have actually me.

[00:28:29] I have available my my health data

[00:28:31] available. I can actually look at

[00:28:33] that again.

[00:28:34] 2024, we still don't have it.

[00:28:36] But that was like the starting

[00:28:38] point where I thought that's where

[00:28:39] we need to get to.

[00:28:40] And that's why I'm really very

[00:28:41] interested in this kind of topics.

[00:28:43] Yes, absolutely.

[00:28:44] I think that data availability

[00:28:47] is the base for

[00:28:49] anything else.

[00:28:50] It what's been exciting in the

[00:28:52] last two years with generative

[00:28:54] AI was that we're moving

[00:28:56] from just data gathering and

[00:28:58] creating data to actually finding

[00:29:00] insights from those data.

[00:29:03] That's the new medicine, by the way

[00:29:04] I was talking about, right?

[00:29:06] So yeah, but

[00:29:07] when it comes to longevity,

[00:29:10] it's I think at the moment

[00:29:12] the basic advice for longevity

[00:29:15] is still pretty simple

[00:29:17] because the statistics

[00:29:19] is very hard to

[00:29:21] attribute to the individual.

[00:29:23] So when you do research on

[00:29:25] what's good for health,

[00:29:27] it's always population research

[00:29:29] and you can never really know if

[00:29:31] that applies to you.

[00:29:32] So the basic, I guess, advice

[00:29:34] is still exercise,

[00:29:36] don't stress, eat well,

[00:29:38] sleep enough.

[00:29:39] And there's probably at least one

[00:29:40] more that's like straightforward.

[00:29:43] It's just not easy

[00:29:45] to implement given the environment

[00:29:47] that we live in.

[00:29:48] There's only so much that you

[00:29:50] can do about the air quality

[00:29:51] in the city that you live in.

[00:29:53] Yeah, it's doing things

[00:29:55] and avoiding things, right?

[00:29:56] Avoiding drugs, avoiding too much

[00:29:58] alcohol. This is the avoidance part.

[00:30:00] All in all, sounds pretty damn boring to me.

[00:30:03] So I'm not sure if I really want

[00:30:05] to do that, but you're right.

[00:30:07] It's statistics to a certain extent.

[00:30:09] It's population statistics.

[00:30:10] And that's one of the piece

[00:30:11] that we have is called

[00:30:12] Precision or personalized medicine.

[00:30:14] He needs to be personalized to you,

[00:30:16] right? And he needs to be clear

[00:30:18] that every one of us is an individual

[00:30:20] and every one of us has to be treated

[00:30:21] differently, needs different things.

[00:30:23] Microbiome is different in everyone.

[00:30:25] So it needs to be adjusted.

[00:30:28] And that's another thing where you can say

[00:30:31] one of the features I really liked

[00:30:32] about this ORA ring was that it measures

[00:30:34] a temperature, but it doesn't measure

[00:30:36] that you are 36.8 or 37.2 degrees Celsius.

[00:30:39] But on whether you are plus or minus

[00:30:42] on your personal baseline.

[00:30:44] So it measures over several days

[00:30:46] that my personal baseline is 36.2

[00:30:49] and my wife is maybe 37.1, right?

[00:30:51] But if I vary by minus point two or minus

[00:30:55] point five, it's always to my personal baseline.

[00:30:58] So 37 may be high for me and is normal

[00:31:01] for my wife.

[00:31:02] But in the doctor's office, he would be

[00:31:04] treated as having a high temperature,

[00:31:06] right? At a certain point.

[00:31:07] So I think these are the important things

[00:31:09] that we need to also integrate and include.

[00:31:13] I don't want to make advertisement,

[00:31:14] but I just have it laying here.

[00:31:15] It was not really on purpose,

[00:31:16] but this is one of the devices that developed.

[00:31:18] It's a it's an audio system.

[00:31:20] So basically you measure here your carotid pulse

[00:31:23] and based on the on on your pulse definition

[00:31:25] or your flow definition,

[00:31:27] you can actually create a biometric profile.

[00:31:30] So I'm not saying anything about

[00:31:32] whether you're sick or healthy or not,

[00:31:34] but it creates a biometric profile.

[00:31:36] Now, when that profile changes,

[00:31:39] there must be a reason for that.

[00:31:40] I don't know what that is yet,

[00:31:43] but it's data gathering.

[00:31:44] We'll find it out at some point in time.

[00:31:46] But these are the kind of things that

[00:31:48] I think are exciting.

[00:31:50] Can you tell me whether your liver makes a sound?

[00:31:53] No.

[00:31:55] Neither do I.

[00:31:56] And if I ask a doctor,

[00:31:58] I asked doctors,

[00:31:58] I said,

[00:31:59] do you does a liver make a sound?

[00:32:00] I said, no, wait, I don't know.

[00:32:03] So they don't know.

[00:32:04] The question is,

[00:32:05] why can we not use all kinds of other information

[00:32:07] that come from your body or inside your body

[00:32:10] and make an assessment out of it

[00:32:12] and use it for diagnosis,

[00:32:13] even though it's not used by a doctor at the moment.

[00:32:16] And that's the real problem

[00:32:17] because the doctor does not know it.

[00:32:19] And so they don't trust the information.

[00:32:22] They don't know what the effect is.

[00:32:24] Anyway, so I think that's going to be cool things coming out.

[00:32:27] We you're basically opening up the question

[00:32:30] of which data is useful

[00:32:32] because we can measure and gather a lot of things.

[00:32:35] Whether or not that's useful or not

[00:32:38] is a different story.

[00:32:40] One thing that I definitely don't like about

[00:32:42] just the general development of software as a service

[00:32:46] and apps is the subscription model.

[00:32:49] Like I didn't I tried the aura

[00:32:51] and I don't want to use it

[00:32:53] because I'm not willing to pay for my own data

[00:32:55] that it measures.

[00:32:56] I just don't think that's a good thing.

[00:32:58] The second thing is that like initially

[00:33:00] when I started using it,

[00:33:02] I really liked the scoring system

[00:33:03] of the sleep that you get.

[00:33:06] But I think that over time can also stress you out.

[00:33:09] And especially I always love this example

[00:33:12] because I got different scores on different days.

[00:33:17] And then there was this one day when I got a great score.

[00:33:20] It was like my sleep was uninterrupted,

[00:33:23] one line, great, rested, great.

[00:33:26] So you might think I should really think

[00:33:29] while I did that night and try to replicate that.

[00:33:32] But actually I can't because what happened that night

[00:33:35] was that my son who's still not

[00:33:38] who's still preschool, he was staying at his grandparents.

[00:33:41] So I was like tricky to interpret the data.

[00:33:44] That's why I love when Pilar Fernandez said that

[00:33:47] everybody talks about data and how data is gold,

[00:33:50] but it's not like people that know what to do with that data are.

[00:33:53] So that's the big challenge of the decade

[00:33:55] that we are currently in,

[00:33:57] how to find the data scientists

[00:33:58] that are going to bring out meaningful insights into the data.

[00:34:03] It's not that data, it's the correlation

[00:34:05] that you set there or it's the correlation

[00:34:07] between the data and your actually

[00:34:09] well-being, your personal well-being.

[00:34:11] And it has to be correlated to actual results.

[00:34:14] I do a lot of AI in my university set up, right?

[00:34:17] And I'm not an AI expert, so not that everybody means I believe

[00:34:20] I simply have people who know how to do this data

[00:34:23] and they block this into a deep learning model.

[00:34:26] And there will be some clusters, right?

[00:34:28] There will be some data clusters.

[00:34:30] And the question is what does it mean?

[00:34:32] There's a cluster and do you believe that cluster

[00:34:34] and do you believe it has any effect?

[00:34:37] And people also do and you think you mentioned that as well

[00:34:40] is that they use data to retrospectively say,

[00:34:43] Oh, now I know why I feel bad because now I have the data points.

[00:34:47] I personally don't use the data like that.

[00:34:49] I just don't think if I feel good on whether that thing tells me

[00:34:52] or I should feel good or not, that doesn't matter to me.

[00:34:54] But that will be something very important.

[00:34:57] Just maybe going back to that thing here.

[00:34:59] We collect about 300 parameters

[00:35:02] and which of the 300 parameters is actually the important one?

[00:35:05] We have found out it's only five out of the 300.

[00:35:09] And what you do is you do, they call it saliency maps in the AI.

[00:35:13] So you basically say which has the highest

[00:35:15] the highest impact on creating some form of cluster,

[00:35:18] which is the highest, the most important one of these parameters.

[00:35:21] And that's maybe something you can do, but it's also still data science.

[00:35:25] And the problem with medicine is and the problem with slow death.

[00:35:29] What I just said is you'll find out five years later or 10 years later.

[00:35:34] And I don't think that deep learning can actually speed that process up.

[00:35:38] I'm not sure it still has to be correlated and corrected.

[00:35:41] But what the advantages of this data science is that you do something

[00:35:44] which we call a leveraged learning or federated learning models

[00:35:48] where we have data from Japan, from China, from India, from Europe,

[00:35:52] from the US all work together if we do it right.

[00:35:55] So we can actually get insights probably faster and quicker with more impact.

[00:35:59] Anyway, I hope that will happen.

[00:36:01] There's actually a lot going on in that sense.

[00:36:04] We've got companies now that are promoting whole body scans,

[00:36:08] either MRI and other techniques.

[00:36:11] So I have my own opinion on this one.

[00:36:13] OK, I would assume it's a positive one.

[00:36:16] No, it's I tell you, I was talking to Renuvo, for example, from from Canada.

[00:36:19] They do that in 2002.

[00:36:22] I don't want to boast of this one.

[00:36:23] In 2002, I started a company called Preventicum in Essen.

[00:36:27] And there were the first ones where the full body MRI

[00:36:30] with all kinds of other analysis, we had a huge data.

[00:36:33] I think they have in the meantime, they have done 25, 30,000 patients.

[00:36:37] So there's a huge data part.

[00:36:38] And now it comes because it can be combined with genetic analysis

[00:36:43] with microbiomes and you have a full set of data of data.

[00:36:47] And you actually find on three to five percent of the individuals

[00:36:50] ago, you find something right on whether that has an impact

[00:36:54] or whether that really helps you as a different story.

[00:36:56] And it's hugely expensive.

[00:36:58] Peter Diamandis also has one called Healthy

[00:37:01] Longerity Foundation or something like that in San Diego,

[00:37:04] where they have a subscription model.

[00:37:06] You basically go there one time, you get to scan and you get all this stuff

[00:37:08] and then you get updates.

[00:37:10] I think that will generate impact and insights

[00:37:13] and it will use the rich people's money

[00:37:15] to actually create these insights for everybody, which is OK.

[00:37:18] I don't mind as long as we have a democratization effect later on.

[00:37:22] Yeah, yeah, that's how innovation usually works

[00:37:24] because of the need for return on investment.

[00:37:27] You always target the populations that can or are willing to pay.

[00:37:32] So that's normal.

[00:37:33] So as a final question, what are you most excited about

[00:37:37] when it comes to the future of healthcare technology

[00:37:40] and the impact that it might have on healthcare?

[00:37:43] I think that we I'm a big fan of, I know,

[00:37:46] I have a lot of friends that are doctors or work in hospitals,

[00:37:48] but I'd like to get rid of hospitals and like to get rid of doctors

[00:37:51] in the current function.

[00:37:53] So I would like to shift healthcare to a home care base

[00:37:57] and have everything possible at home with very inexpensive,

[00:38:01] widely available systems that actually do give me a diagnosis

[00:38:06] and do give me some recommendation, but also give me a recommendation.

[00:38:10] Please go see a professional now.

[00:38:13] But having that entry point further moved to my home

[00:38:17] and have that availability there at any time I wanted

[00:38:21] and have at basically at a cost factor that is acceptable to everyone.

[00:38:27] If you just look at the US, for example, the longevity goes down,

[00:38:31] but it's not going down for the rich people.

[00:38:33] It's going down because the poor people are not being able

[00:38:35] to afford health care anymore.

[00:38:36] And with that, they have less access to that.

[00:38:38] And then it reduces an average life expectancy.

[00:38:41] I think that's the most important thing that technology will do

[00:38:45] is help us basically have a status report about our health

[00:38:50] at any time, gives us also advice, but it's available to everyone.

[00:38:54] That's at least my dream and have a business model attached to it.

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